Few Bellagio hands
 

Good to play with some of you this weekend. Here are a couple hands. They're kind of meh but I never post hands anymore so here goes.

1. 60/120. Main opponent is George the doctor, he's an Indian/Pakistani guy who has a lot of money but is pretty terrible at hold 'em and was keeping a lot of the higher limit games running this weekend. He probably plays at about a 55/15 and is moody/weird/random on postflop streets, emphasis on moody, capable of bluffs and semibluffs and overplaying weak hands, especially when running well. At this time he was stuck pretty bad though and looked kind of sad.

Anyway George limps in EP, some other dude overlimps in MP, an Asian regular who is a little too laggy but tough and competent and probably views me the same calls in SB, I knuckle in the BB with Q8s.

Flop is 873 with a flush draw. SB bets, I raise, George cold calls, SB calls.

Turn is a Q giving me top two pair. SB checks, I bet and they both call.

River is a 9 no flush. I bet, George raises, SB tanks for a little bit and folds, I tank for a little bit and raise, George tanks for a little bit and 3-bets, I fold.

2. 100/200 game a couple of nights later. This is a really crazy, really great game. I open KTo from the hijack; I think my image is fairly strong as I've won a couple of big pots to make a nice comeback after being stuck a bit before. George calls in the SB, he's running better and much more jovial tonight. The BB calls -- I think his name is Rick -- friendly, clean-cut guy, looks like he's maybe 35 though I think he might look young for his age. We'd had a conversation earlier about players that come from live backgrounds versus Internet backgrounds; he recognizes that I'm a good example of the latter and he's certainly a good example of the former. He reads hands/people well, but is probably a hair tight/passive after the flop by hold'em v.2007 standards, not a lot but a little. He's stuck quite a bit tonight and that seems to be affecting his play some, though I'm sure he's still +EV against this lineup.

Anyway the flop is QJx rainbow, giving me an OESD. Checked around to me and I bet, they both call.

The turn is a blank putting two diamonds on the board. I check behind.

River is the 9 of diamonds giving me the nut straight although putting a backdoor flush on the board (I don't have any diamonds). SB bets into me and I just call.

3. 100/200 again, Villain is Terri, I hope I'm spelling that right. She's a regular's regular and has been talked about before on these boards. She's very tough/creative/aggressive in position and loves to raise flops or turns and then check behind. Anyway she raises from the cutoff and I 3-bet red 8's from the BB, she calls. Flop is like Q54 with a flush draw in something black, I bet and she raises. Of course what happened is that she checked behind the turn and didn't pay off when the river blanked off. Does anyone like a flop 3-bet or turn lead here? I'm not saying 100% of the time but some minority of the time for balancing purposes?

4. 100/200, folded around to me in the SB, I decide to compete with K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7x, bicyclekick raises in the BB, I call. Bike has been playing a lot of hands but for the most part has been strong at showdown. The only other time it had been folded around to me in the SB I folded and let him have the blinds and made some remark about how he was never going to let me see a cheap flop.

Anyway this time the flop is AQx, with a spade flush draw (my K is the backdoor nuts), I check he bets and I fold ... I should probably have hung around here, right?

Re: Few Bellagio hands
 

river 3bet in hand 1 doesnt look good. 56 and jt (and 99 i guess?) is a lot of combos. and even if folding to the 4bet is correct, it sounds like u still give up some equity in not seeing a showdown

hand 4 i would just about never fold flop. i would cc without much of a plan for turn/river. i would cc the turn always if i picked up a gutshot. im assuming bk is raising like 86o preflop though, which maybe hes not

Re: Few Bellagio hands
 

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river 3bet in hand 1 doesnt look good. 56 and jt (and 99 i guess?) is a lot of combos.

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I guess I didn't think he was loose enough to cold call with JT on the flop with just a gutter unless he also had the flush draw, which is just one combo. I also didn't think he'd play 65o, though he's definitely playing the suited variants. 99 is possible though I'm 85% sure he raises that preflop. Could be wrong about any of these things.

Re: Few Bellagio hands
 

hand 3: i'd rather just call preflop. i think i like a turn donk. once the turn checks through and the river blanks off, i don't see why you'd want to bet, especially given your preflop line. she can't call, but maybe she'll stab.

hand 4: i don't think you should open complete here. playing oop vs. an aggro monkey is gonna suck.

Re: Few Bellagio hands
 

Hand 3 I just call preflop too but as played I like a flop 3 bet the majority of the time, not just for balance. It's a good board to pacify you, to feel confident with any pair, and she knows a Q high board is nice to make AK not be thrilled with life.

Hand 4 I'm raising BK with something that strong but as played I check/call flop at least and don't hate a checkraise.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Few Bellagio hands
 

re: Preflop in Hand 3 -- I guess I feel that calling preflop just gives her too much control. I think being able to represent the big overpair/TPTK hands as part of your range keeps her more in line after the flop and tends to cut against her positional advantage. On that Q54 flop for example if you check-raise then she's still never ever folding a better hand but she can play back at you more liberally knowing that hands like AQ and KK are not likely to be part of your range.

Re: Few Bellagio hands
 

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re: Preflop in Hand 3 -- I guess I feel that calling preflop just gives her too much control. I think being able to represent the big overpair/TPTK hands as part of your range keeps her more in line after the flop and tends to cut against her positional advantage. On that Q54 flop for example if you check-raise then she's still never ever folding a better hand but she can play back at you more liberally knowing that hands like AQ and KK are not likely to be part of your range.

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yeah, but you don't mind her playing back at you, as you are almost never folding. let her barrell away. plus, i don't really want to bloat the pot oop here. i'd much rather take a look at the flop and go from there.

Re: Few Bellagio hands
 

Then just call with AQ and KK. (I never raise AQ here anyway and experimenting with trying this with the premiums)

-DeathDonkey

Re: Few Bellagio hands
 

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re: Preflop in Hand 3 -- I guess I feel that calling preflop just gives her too much control. I think being able to represent the big overpair/TPTK hands as part of your range keeps her more in line after the flop and tends to cut against her positional advantage. On that Q54 flop for example if you check-raise then she's still never ever folding a better hand but she can play back at you more liberally knowing that hands like AQ and KK are not likely to be part of your range.

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yeah, but you don't mind her playing back at you, as you are almost never folding. let her barrell away. plus, i don't really want to bloat the pot oop here. i'd much rather take a look at the flop and go from there.

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I guess I'm in the camp that says Teri/Terri/Terry plays pretty damn well in position by that I mean she'll manage her bet/check frequencies fairly optimally. This is especially damaging with something like 88 because when ahead it's generally vulnerable to at least six outs, making free cards more costly (as opposed to something like AJ, which has about the same strength in the abstract but which may give her dominated outs, and which is more likely to benefit from free cards and cheap showdowns itself). I'd rather "just see a flop" with 88 against someone like sweeta from the old PartyPoker games who was relentlessly aggressive and more inclined to bluff off chips with a worse hand.

Re: Few Bellagio hands
 

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Then just call with AQ and KK. (I never raise AQ here anyway and experimenting with trying this with the premiums)

-DeathDonkey

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I think my strategy achieves equal postflop balance without giving up nearly as much preflop equity.

Re: Few Bellagio hands
 

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This is especially damaging with something like 88 because when ahead it's generally vulnerable to at least six outs

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which is why i want to keep the pot small.

Re: Few Bellagio hands
 

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This is especially damaging with something like 88 because when ahead it's generally vulnerable to at least six outs

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which is why i want to keep the pot small.

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The counter to this is that the extra hand strength that you represent by 3-betting preflop worsens her perceived drawing odds, because she's more likely to run into dirty outs. So from her point of view perhaps she's drawing to 5 clean outs in a slightly larger pot versus 3.5 clean outs in a slightly smaller pot, which is roughly the same difference.

Re: Few Bellagio hands
 

I personally never call 88 preflop in a HU pot in that position. Hands like 77 to JJ are the kind of hand that I'm going to 3 bet preflop because I think they play better postflop that way. Personally with just 1 over card on that board I would definitively fire the turn or 3 bet the flop. If she has a Q in her hand it's too bad but a free card on the turn is a killer here so I'd bet it.

Re: Few Bellagio hands
 

What is with hand 2.

Re: Few Bellagio hands
 

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What is with hand 2.

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Well, that's for you guys to discuss. I think the thinking is pretty clear. SB is overcalling with any sort of pair but I doubt that he's calling two cold. BB is perhaps folding some one-pair hands to a raise and I don't think he ever 3-bets without a hand that chops with mine or (occasionally) beats it.

Re: Few Bellagio hands
 

I think you posted the river action in Hand 2 wrong which is why we have no idea wtf is going through your head. You wrote that SB bet into you, but from this response I guess it's actually BB who bets into you?

FWIW, I'd just call the raise in hand 2, I'd 3-bet the flop in hand 3, and I don't mind the c/f in hand 4 but I dont really have any idea how BK plays.

Re: Few Bellagio hands
 

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I think you posted the river action in Hand 2 wrong which is why we have no idea wtf is going through your head. You wrote that SB bet into you, but from this response I guess it's actually BB who bets into you?

FWIW, I'd just call the raise in hand 2, I'd 3-bet the flop in hand 3, and I don't mind the c/f in hand 4 but I dont really have any idea how BK plays.

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Oops, yeah, hand 2 is borked, SB checked and BB bet into me.

Re: Few Bellagio hands
 

Hand 1: It seems like you really want to see a showdown vs. a guy who has been unpredicable, is stuck, and will raise weak holdings. I don't like the raise, but if I raise and he re-pops, I would still see a showdown - you don't have to catch him going off the deep end very often to make this worthwhile (8 BB going to the river, then your raising adventure w/ george means you only need to be good about 1-14, correct?).
I still don't see the value in raising - I'd like to here your thought behind it.

Hand 2: Raising the river seems to have just as much equity as calling. Your turn check means he would lead out here with 2 pair/set/TPTK (maybe)/flush/bluff
If he has a flush, obviously you lose another bet - if he was bluffing or had a weak hand then he wont call another bet anyways.
But he would probably pay you off with pair/set (possible given that the board is high cards). Eh, seems about even EV to me.


Hand 3 - Like the PF raise.

Hand 4 - I'd probably be done with it. It doesn't seem very profitable because he'll probably bet the turn regardless and you're left guessing again (if a spade comes you can get tricky if you want)

Re: Few Bellagio hands
 

haven't read any comments but

hand 1 terrible river 3 bet, I would never make this raise here against anyone.

hand 2 ugh? how do you make the river 3 bet in hand one and just call here. also:

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We'd had a conversation earlier about players that come from live backgrounds versus Internet backgrounds; he recognizes that I'm a good example of the latter and he's certainly a good example of the former.

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doing this stuff is SO BAD. Don't talk about yourself at the table like this, why give away anything? UGH.

hand 3 I 3bet flop 90% of the time against almost anyone especially "good tricky" players.

hand 4 raise preflop.. as played fold flop why get yourself in deeper here.

Re: Few Bellagio hands
 

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hand 3 I 3bet flop 90% of the time against almost anyone especially "good tricky" players.

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Why 90% 3 bets against "good tricky" players in hand 3? I am more likely to do this against "tricky" players who think they are good and will overplay there 6 when they have A6 and the flop comes Q65. I don't think we are losing too much equity here by only 3 betting 30-40% or so.

You are bloating the pot OOP. If you flat call you relenquish control of the pot but you can gain it back fairly easily against a player who is described as "tricky", but nonetheless sounds predictable in her aggressiveness. In fact, based upon the description of her and the flop texture it sounds like a flop CR/call, turn donk sounds like the line to me.

OP I think you are too concerned about defining her hand early on and gaining control, but you lost control of the pot on the turn and river anyway. Against this type of player, who plays well in position, her hand will not be well defined early anyway because it sounds like she will play the flop the same whether she has AK or AQ.

I much prefer a smoothcall, followed by a CR/call or bet/3 bang on the flop. On the turn almost always a lead/call and either check/call or check/fold river based upon board texture and reads.

Re: Few Bellagio hands
 

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doing this stuff is SO BAD. Don't talk about yourself at the table like this, why give away anything? UGH.

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Trust me that (i) I don't go out of my way to bring the subject up; (ii) it's painfully obvious from my clumsy chip-handling anyway.

Re: Few Bellagio hands
 

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doing this stuff is SO BAD. Don't talk about yourself at the table like this, why give away anything? UGH.

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Trust me that (i) I don't go out of my way to bring the subject up; (ii) it's painfully obvious from my clumsy chip-handling anyway.

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Ive been playing live for 6 years and still cant handle the chips so dont feel bad.

Re: Few Bellagio hands
 

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Hand 1: It seems like you really want to see a showdown vs. a guy who has been unpredicable, is stuck, and will raise weak holdings. I don't like the raise, but if I raise and he re-pops, I would still see a showdown - you don't have to catch him going off the deep end very often to make this worthwhile (8 BB going to the river, then your raising adventure w/ george means you only need to be good about 1-14, correct?).
I still don't see the value in raising - I'd like to here your thought behind it.

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At the time I guess I didn't see him as being quite as loose as he was after I'd played the 100/200 session with him and heavily discounted 65 because of preflop and JT because he called two cold on the flop. But even with a heavy discount the hand combos probably do not work out right often enough for me to raise, especially since it looks like the SB holds some of the cards that I want George to hold.

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Hand 2: Raising the river seems to have just as much equity as calling. Your turn check means he would lead out here with 2 pair/set/TPTK (maybe)/flush/bluff
If he has a flush, obviously you lose another bet - if he was bluffing or had a weak hand then he wont call another bet anyways.
But he would probably pay you off with pair/set (possible given that the board is high cards). Eh, seems about even EV to me.

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He can also have my hand (KT) a lot. I dunno, I figure his range looks something like:

5% flush
20% KT (chop)
5% smaller straight (T8)
25% two pair (or set)
30% one pair
15% hand that's essentially a bluff (T9)

Arbitrarily I'd guess that he calls with all two pair+ and maybe the very best of his one-pair hands, like KQ or something, say 5% of the 30% of his one pair hands. If that's the case then my equity on the raise if the pot were heads up is +.25 BB (skipping some math there). So that's how much equity I need to collect from the overcall to make the softplay correct. And I think I might very well collect that much equity, because SB's range consists of a *lot* of weak one-pair hands *and* he'll pay off with them, but his range of hands that are strong enough to call two bets cold on the river but *not* bet the river after the turn gets checked through is very small. I mean, I think his typical hand here is like J6s or T9o.

Re: Few Bellagio hands
 

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doing this stuff is SO BAD. Don't talk about yourself at the table like this, why give away anything? UGH.

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Trust me that (i) I don't go out of my way to bring the subject up; (ii) it's painfully obvious from my clumsy chip-handling anyway.

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You've had 3(?) years to fix this since I played with you last. C'mon Nate, represent!

Re: Few Bellagio hands
 

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haven't read any comments but

hand 1 terrible river 3 bet, I would never make this raise here against anyone.

hand 2 ugh? how do you make the river 3 bet in hand one and just call here. also:

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We'd had a conversation earlier about players that come from live backgrounds versus Internet backgrounds; he recognizes that I'm a good example of the latter and he's certainly a good example of the former.

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doing this stuff is SO BAD. Don't talk about yourself at the table like this, why give away anything? UGH.

hand 3 I 3bet flop 90% of the time against almost anyone especially "good tricky" players.

hand 4 raise preflop.. as played fold flop why get yourself in deeper here.

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I pretty much agree with all of this.

Calling on hand 1 seems standard. I don't think a raise is quite as bad as Vehn does, but it sure smells like 5-card hand.

Hand 2 I'd raise, I think the 30% one-pair range is light and the chop range is too high. No reason to expect an overcall given the action (or lack thereof) so far.

Hand 3 is just gas all the way in that situation. 3-bet preflop I think is real standard and essential against someone with that profile. If she's that tough with position why encourage her to keep raping your blinds by playing passive with big hands like 88.

Hand 4, just raise preflop. Not a fan of limping here against a real good shorhanded player. Fold the flop and move along.

Re: Few Bellagio hands
 

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doing this stuff is SO BAD. Don't talk about yourself at the table like this, why give away anything? UGH.

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Trust me that (i) I don't go out of my way to bring the subject up; (ii) it's painfully obvious from my clumsy chip-handling anyway.

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You've had 3(?) years to fix this since I played with you last. C'mon Nate, represent!

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My live play is generally limited to the twice a year I play in Vegas and the once every few months I play down at the boats here in Chicago. But increasingly I'm thinking that I'm just inherently a klutz and I'd still be largely the same way even if I was a regular. At least I didn't get called on any string-bets!

Re: Few Bellagio hands
 

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Hand 2 I'd raise, I think the 30% one-pair range is light and the chop range is too high. No reason to expect an overcall given the action (or lack thereof) so far.

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If the 30% one-pair range is light -- and it might well be, though I don't think he's the type to make super thin value-bets -- that's actually more of an argument for calling, because this particular player is very capable of making a laydown, and the only thing that one-pair beats on that board is a bluff. The SB also had a specific tendency to calldown very light when the action had been slow on the postflop streets -- I think he sees a showdown with any pair, and maybe even ace-high. I'm actually like 95% certain that my play is right, but it might have been one of those "had to be there" things.

Re: Few Bellagio hands
 

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Hand 2 I'd raise, I think the 30% one-pair range is light and the chop range is too high. No reason to expect an overcall given the action (or lack thereof) so far.

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If the 30% one-pair range is light -- and it might well be, though I don't think he's the type to make super thin value-bets -- that's actually more of an argument for calling, because this particular player is very capable of making a laydown, and the only thing that one-pair beats on that board is a bluff. The SB also had a specific tendency to calldown very light when the action had been slow on the postflop streets -- I think he sees a showdown with any pair, and maybe even ace-high. I'm actually like 95% certain that my play is right, but it might have been one of those "had to be there" things.

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Yeah, I guess I don't view a bet with a Q or even a J as a thin value bet given the action. At 8-16 maybe, but not 60-120.

Re: Few Bellagio hands
 

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She's very tough/creative/aggressive in position and loves to raise flops or turns and then check behind.

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Terri. What's she look like?

Re: Few Bellagio hands
 

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doing this stuff is SO BAD. Don't talk about yourself at the table like this, why give away anything? UGH.

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Trust me that (i) I don't go out of my way to bring the subject up; (ii) it's painfully obvious from my clumsy chip-handling anyway.

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You used to have some yuppie 20-something job, right? Act like it.