Weird Floor Decision at Wynn
 

This happened about 2 or 3 weeks ago at Wynn early in the morning with only a few tables running. I was wondering your opinions were on this ruling that happened when I was sitting in a $2/5 NL game.

I sit down in the BB seat so I post and have the whole table covered. There are two limpers and the SB calls. I take a peak at my cards in the BB and see 33. The EP limper had cash so I asked him how many bills he had while I was about to raise. He declared 5 bills. All my opponents had ~$1000. I make it $15 to go and everyone calls.

Flop ($45) A23 rainbow

I open for $40 and the guy with the bills calls me. Heads up to the turn.

Turn ($125) A23T rainbow

I reach for a stack and before I could even grasp it he grabs his bills and starts to put them in. After some table talk I decide the amount to bet is $200 and he shoves on me and I call.

River (~$2400) A23TA

Mr. Bills turns over A2 for the bigger full house. As he is counting his money out for me to pay him he counts down 6 bills. Someone at the table remarked how he said 5 this very hand as a joke, but long story short, the floor came over to make a decision. It was wether or not I owed the extra hundred or not because he declared a lower amount during the hand in a hidden stack that I asked to see. The floor ruled that I only owed for the 5 bills and not the 6th.

Reflecting on this, I think this was a bad ruling. Opinions?

Re: Weird Floor Decision at Wynn
 

Seems like a good ruling to me. He lied to you, intentionally or not. You were under the very reasonable impression that you were calling $500. Why should you pay up $600?

Re: Weird Floor Decision at Wynn
 

On the turn, you should probably have asked for a count before calling. Mind you, hindsight is 20/20. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

I think that provided all the chips were in plain view, you would be held to the full amount (i.e. the extra $100). The problem here is that not all of his bank was in the form of chips.

Hypothetically, do you think the decision would have been different if only chips had been in play?

Re: Weird Floor Decision at Wynn
 

There are two contradicting principles in play here. One is he stated he had 5 bills so the 6th bill could be treated like a hidden bill and not play. The other is that had you won the pot since you covered him he would have shipped his money over wth out it being counted. In this case I would allow the 6th bill to play. If he had declared 5 bills when in fact he had 12 bills only the 5 would play.

Re: Weird Floor Decision at Wynn
 

It's an honest mistake on the other players part, you could have asked for a count before the call to make sure but you didn't, and if you had its not like the extra hundred would have made you fold would it ?

If you had won and counted that there were 6 bills instead of 5 would you have let him keep the 1 he didn't tell you about ? if so then the ruling is right, if you would have kept the extra 1 then you should have paid him.

Re: Weird Floor Decision at Wynn
 

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If you had won and counted that there were 6 bills instead of 5 would you have let him keep the 1 he didn't tell you about ? if so then the ruling is right, if you would have kept the extra 1 then you should have paid him.

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The reason i don't like this analysis, is that assumes that the misstatement was not the fault of the other player. I don't think its unfair to put the other player in a position that he is disadvantaged at (he can't win the extra bill but he can lose it) where the mistake is his. would be more inclined to go with your anlaysis if the dealer was the one who made the misstatement.

Re: Weird Floor Decision at Wynn
 

the dealer should've asked to count when there was an all-in, and you probably should've made sure how many bills there were.

Re: Weird Floor Decision at Wynn
 

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the dealer should've asked to count when there was an all-in, and you probably should've made sure how many bills there were.

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This is specifically wrong. The dealer shouuld not touch/count or cause to be counted an all-in unless requested by a player.

Re: Weird Floor Decision at Wynn
 

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the dealer should've asked to count when there was an all-in, and you probably should've made sure how many bills there were.

[/ QUOTE ] The dealer should never touch another persons stack unless it is requested by another player.

Re: Weird Floor Decision at Wynn
 

I'm in the "protect yourself at all times" camp. Since you asked how many bills were there, I think you did your due diligence. When the guy says he has five bills, you can't be expected to say, "Prove it! Fan them out! Bring them over here, let me count them!"

If I'm the floor, I rule that since he won, five bills play.

Re: Weird Floor Decision at Wynn
 

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It's an honest mistake on the other players part, you could have asked for a count before the call to make sure but you didn't, and if you had its not like the extra hundred would have made you fold would it ?

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He did ask for the count - he asked the player and was told "5 bills". Doesn't matter when in the hand he did it. That's all he owes.

Re: Weird Floor Decision at Wynn
 

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the dealer should've asked to count when there was an all-in, and you probably should've made sure how many bills there were.

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This is specifically wrong. The dealer shouuld not touch/count or cause to be counted an all-in unless requested by a player.

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Many players don't seem to understand this. The other day while dealing a tournament i managed to have the same problem at two consecutive tables.

First, Player in Seat 9 pushes all in and the remaining player in seat 2 is thinking about what to do. Player in Seat 10 reaches out and breaks down seat 9s stack. I imeediately ask him not to touch another players stack and he informs me that he did it because I wasn't doing my job. We growled at each other and he pretended like he was a VIP and was going to have me fired (I should be so lucky).

The next table a player in the pushes all in and another player asks him how much, the player immediately starts breaking down the stack to count it, but another player not in the hand decides to inform me that I should do it.

Re: Weird Floor Decision at Wynn
 

If he said 5 bills - you owe 5 bills

Re: Weird Floor Decision at Wynn
 

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the dealer should've asked to count when there was an all-in, and you probably should've made sure how many bills there were.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is specifically wrong. The dealer shouuld not touch/count or cause to be counted an all-in unless requested by a player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Many players don't seem to understand this. The other day while dealing a tournament i managed to have the same problem at two consecutive tables.

First, Player in Seat 9 pushes all in and the remaining player in seat 2 is thinking about what to do. Player in Seat 10 reaches out and breaks down seat 9s stack. I imeediately ask him not to touch another players stack and he informs me that he did it because I wasn't doing my job. We growled at each other and he pretended like he was a VIP and was going to have me fired (I should be so lucky).

The next table a player in the pushes all in and another player asks him how much, the player immediately starts breaking down the stack to count it, but another player not in the hand decides to inform me that I should do it.

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Sandman - Itr is getting funny how ignorant people are about poker.

You NEVER, EVER touch a player's all-in chips unless the deciding player asks for a count. Even then, if the aggressor wants to run his own chips down, he does it, not you.

Re: Weird Floor Decision at Wynn
 

I think you owe the full 600. Lots of ppl ask other ppl how much they have in a casual fashion. If you wanted a detailed count you should have asked the dealer.

Re: Weird Floor Decision at Wynn
 

This is an awful ruling. You 100% owe $600. It is your responsibility to know how much hes going allin for.

In a similar story, at bellagio someone had a $5k chip underneath a stack of 100s, another player asked how much he had and he did not declare the $5k chip, and when they got allin, the guy had to pay him for the $5k chip.

Re: Weird Floor Decision at Wynn
 

I think it's a little unfair to say that dealer cannot perform a count if requested (meaning that the player must do it if requested, and the dealer cannot interfere). Is that what is being implied here?

Table games staff use specific and consistent procedures to verify chips amounts (or, at least, they should). Players, as a rule, do not. I am therefore more likely to trust a dealer's count than a player's.

Re: Weird Floor Decision at Wynn
 

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I think it's a little unfair to say that dealer cannot perform a count if requested (meaning that the player must do it if requested, and the dealer cannot interfere). Is that what is being implied here?


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The dealer can and will if the player won't, but generally if the player will run them down the dealer shoudl keep his hands off the chips.

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I am therefore more likely to trust a dealer's count than a player's.

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At any given time there are a lot more players than dealers at the table, but I know of a lot more dealers that have been caught stealing chips out of the pot.

Re: Weird Floor Decision at Wynn
 

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This is an awful ruling. You 100% owe $600. It is your responsibility to know how much hes going allin for.

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How should the OP ascertain how many bills are in his opponent's stack? He asked, and got a definitive answer, which turned out to be incorrect.

You say that it's the OP's responsibility to know how much the other player has. How do you suggest that he find out?


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In a similar story, at bellagio someone had a $5k chip underneath a stack of 100s, another player asked how much he had and he did not declare the $5k chip, and when they got allin, the guy had to pay him for the $5k chip.

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If this indeed happened as you describe, it wouldn't be the first time a floorperson made a bad decision.

Re: Weird Floor Decision at Wynn
 

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I think it's a little unfair to say that dealer cannot perform a count if requested (meaning that the player must do it if requested, and the dealer cannot interfere). Is that what is being implied here?

Table games staff use specific and consistent procedures to verify chips amounts (or, at least, they should). Players, as a rule, do not. I am therefore more likely to trust a dealer's count than a player's.

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No thats not whats being implied. In the first scenari had, the remaining player did not request a count. The player in the 10 seat decided that I was supposed to count down the chips even though the remaining player did not ask.

In the second instance, the player asked for a count, and the player whose chips they were immediately began breaking down the chips to give him the count -- There was no need for me to touch the chips. But aplayer not even in the hand took exception to my letting the player handle his own chips.

Re: Weird Floor Decision at Wynn
 

Just another note that everyone should think of this kind of thing when you're sitting at eTables in ten years. Me, I prefer cards and chips, but this is exactly the sort of thing on a long list of reasons for rooms to switch.

the problem started with the dealer
 

Who DIDN'T MAKE THINGS CLEAR.

This problem could have been completely avoided. When someone asks how much does he have, it's up to the dealer to make sure that amount is both correct and clearly announced.

The floor just screwed it up worse, since apparently hearsay from some guy overrides the actual counts of the bets being made at the table.

This hand also illustrates why cash should not be allowed on the table, particularly in bigger games where it's so easy to confuse (or intentionally hide) amounts. Cash is angle shot city waiting to happen, while chips don't afford such luxuries to the unscrupulous player.

Re: the problem started with the dealer
 

Al - I am trying to understand this.

Player A asks Player B what he is playing behind, he says 5 $100 bills.

Player A goes all in based on that representation, player B calls.

If PLayer B wins the hand, are you telling me player A would have to pay 6 $100 bills when the player B declared 5?????

I think you know that is not true, and any floor would rule that if player B said 5 bills, A would owe 5 bills.

The converse has got to be true as well.

If you accept another player's representation of his stack, and it is verbal, it will always stand.

Secondly, are you telling me the dealer is supposed to interject, reach into the stack of another player and count bills and chips????

No way, no dealer procedure I have ever read or writted would prescribe that. Dealer only counts down stacks AT THE REQUEST OF THE PLAYER, NOT ON HIS/HER OWN.

If you ever reachHed into my stack with out my permission, you definitely wouldn't like it.

Cash is only an angle shot if the player allows it to be an angle shot.

When I play 5/10 NL, and I have face a big bet, I ask THE PLAYER, NOT THE DEALER, TO RUN DOWN TO FUNDS TO VERIFY THEM.

Could you imagine what Sam Farha or Mike Matusow would do if one of those dealers on the TV show reached over and started breaking bricks and counting down bills?????

Get real.

Re: the problem started with the dealer
 

Tourney, I think Al's saying after B says how much he bet, Dealer should make sure that is correct and was heard. If B bets $1000 AI, the dealer should correct him if he says $800 or $1300 or "It's (incoherent answer here) total."

Re: the problem started with the dealer
 

Jack - You seem fairly articulate, so I'll ask you.

Don't you trhink the person who REALLY should make sure that it is correct is the PLAYER IN THE HAND, much moreso than the dealer????

Re: the problem started with the dealer
 

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The converse has got to be true as well.

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The converse does not have to be true. And should not be true. This would mean a player could effectively take money of the table simply by giving a false count,

Re: the problem started with the dealer
 

psandman - what responsibility do you bear to ensure the information you are getting from another player is accurate??

Re: the problem started with the dealer
 

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Jack - You seem fairly articulate, so I'll ask you.

Don't you trhink the person who REALLY should make sure that it is correct is the PLAYER IN THE HAND, much moreso than the dealer????

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I'm no Rotter/Al/RR/TT/YTF/whoever I'm forgetting, but I'll try.

If it's a seat 5 vs 6, they can easily see each others stacks. But a 3 vs 7, does the one calling have to get up and walk to the other's seat to check the amount?

It's someitmes hard to see how many chips someone has due to lighting,distance, chips stacking style (10 vs 20 vs 17 per stack, or if the guy plays out of the rack).

So it's simple, if you don't know the amount ask the bettor/dealer to count it out. You can't ask the dealer how much someone has that isn't bet, but you can ask how much a bet is.

Re: the problem started with the dealer
 

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psandman - what responsibility do you bear to ensure the information you are getting from another player is accurate??

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I think you need to act reasonably under the circumstances. If a player gives you a count which is obviously inaccurate you shouldn't be able to rely on it. If its obvious that the other player was just giving you a roiugh estimate then you shouldn't be permitted to rely on it as a definative amount.ut when it comes to bills, if you see him count them and its not obviously inaccuarte you should be reasonably able to rely on his count.

Re: the problem started with the dealer
 

Jack and psandman - We are starting to close the gap here.

Your assertions about a player not relying on a players verbal count are for sure true.

PLayer who has to act can always ask for an exact count at any time.

Problem here is that the player DID NOT ASK for an exact count. He took the other players word, and for that, I as a floor and former cardroom manager, could not allow him to have it both ways.

If he acted, believing the bill total was 5, then 5 has to be in action, especially if it seems accurate. He cannot win 6 and only pay 5, that is completely unacceptable and flies in the face of fairness.

What is the role of the dealer.....IMO....very limited. He is not an advocate to reading bills or stacks on his/her own. He/She is there to run the game.

If a player doesn't ask for total accuracy of a tablew stake, then he/she bears the brunt of the error.

It is very similar to the other post where the guy cries about having his cards mucked.

He took it the wrong way.....I am not saying the dealer is right, or good, or not a complete chump.

What I am saying is that, based on 20+ years in gaming, is that you can only rely on yourself, and any post which does not begin with, 'I screwed up and did not protect my cards' is weak and unaccetable to me, dealer error/vindication not withstanding.

In this case, pLayer A asked what the bills were, believed, based on the asnwer and the stack in question that the stack was accurate, and bet accordingly.

He has only HIMSELF to blame, not the dealer or other player, if is found to be inaccurate after the action is complete.

Simple to me.

Re: the problem started with the dealer
 

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Problem here is that the player DID NOT ASK for an exact count.

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According to OP, he asked the other player how many bills he had...his opponent answered five. That sounds like a request for an exact count of the bills, and unless the bills were a giant wad that couldn't possibly be five, i don't see how the answer 5 is not a definative answer. If the player said about five you would be correct, but the player answered "5".

Re: the problem started with the dealer
 

Trying not to be a nit - he never asks the player to count the money, and never asked the player to count the money on the felt.

I cannot assume it was an angle shot, and it could have been as easy as 2 bills sitcking together on a quick count.

The principle that applies is this - if erroneous (once again, not assuming an angle shot) information is given, and a player acts on that, that is the action.

What if the player said '4', and the stack was actually '5', are you saying the other player is entitled to 5 bills?????????

There is absolutely no way that is true, he would owe '4' if he lost, and thus, only get '4' if he wins.

It seems pretty simple to me.

Re: the problem started with the dealer
 

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Trying not to be a nit - he never asks the player to count the money,

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back to original post

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so I asked him how many bills he had

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That sounds like a request for a count to me. I will agree that in context there may be dispute as to whether the answer was definitive or an estimate and it may be the sort fo thing you had to be there to judge fairly (perhaps the tone of the answer indicatied that it was just a guestimate).

To put the burden on the player asking for the count to make sure the count is actually accurate seems to me to be a ridiculous burden which would bring games to a halt.

Player 1: How many bills do you have back there.
Player 2: I have 8 bills.
Player 1: Can I see you count them.
Player 2: String of obscenities... Here 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8
Player 1: Returning string of obscenities . . I'm sorry I didn't see that, would you kindly mind laying each bill on the felt.

You can just imagine where this discussion is going now repeat everytime a player wants a count.




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What if the player said '4', and the stack was actually '5', are you saying the other player is entitled to 5 bills?????????

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That is precisely what I am saying. I am saying that the player who caused the probelm (by giving the erroneous information) should be the one who takes the worst of it. It sucks to take the worst of it, but one of these two is going to get screwed . . . it seems to me an easy answer to say the guy who is at fault is the one who takes the screwing.

This seems rather simple to me.

Re: Weird Floor Decision at Wynn
 

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I think you owe the full 600. Lots of ppl ask other ppl how much they have in a casual fashion. If you wanted a detailed count you should have asked the dealer.

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This is a tough one but I have to disagree with this. The player was asked how many bills he had. Not approximately how many but how many and he said 5. There may be a casual answer but the question was clear as day.

Re: Weird Floor Decision at Wynn
 

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I think you owe the full 600. Lots of ppl ask other ppl how much they have in a casual fashion. If you wanted a detailed count you should have asked the dealer.

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This is a tough one but I have to disagree with this. The player was asked how many bills he had. Not approximately how many but how many and he said 5. There may be a casual answer but the question was clear as day.

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Agreed, was asked specifically and he answered specifically. Had he answered "about 5" and he wasn't pressed for a more accurate count then the 600 is in play.