Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

6-12 Canterbury

I'm in seat 5. Seat 7 isn't playing ATC, but he's pretty darn close. Truly playing 85% of his cards. Since he's on a rush and seems to be sucking out every time, the table sees most of the cards he's playing.

Pretty soon, seat four starts ripping into him -- "How can you call with that crap .... Don't you know anything about poker, etc." I try to quietly tell him, let it go, but he is having none of it.

45 minutes (and three racks of chips) later Seat 7 gets up and leaves. At which point three other players rip into seat 4, explaining that when someone is betting like that, the last thing you want to do is mock him. That if Seat 7 is going to play those hands, we want to keep him here as long as possible, and that his actions probably drove the guy from the table.

Anyway -- the question before the floor, what do you do when someone at the table is berating someone you want to keep around?

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

Try to engage the fish in friendly conversation and keep him happy.

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

Talk about how you play those hands all the time and win, and let the fish know that you "Cant win if you dont play."

When he loses a pot with 3rd pair no kicker, shake your head in disgust while saying "oww, tough break" and talk to him for 15 minutes about his bad beat and how you cant believe his hand didnt hold up.

Do the same for missed straight/flush draws

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

Had a similar situation at 1/2NL at Harrah's AC last weekend. I'm in the 2 seat, the 3 and 5 were good players and we had quietly discussed how bad the 10 seat was. Same deal - playing 85% of hands, calling PF raises every time he limped, and was a regular on the express bus to value town. We (me, 3, and 5) were in a contest to see who could iso-raise him more frequently. He needed to be reminded of the action EVERY time it was his turn to act, but we tolerated the slow play due to his ATM tendencies. He already put $900 on the table in the last 2 hours and had more to go. LPP all the way.

Suddenly the table changed. 95 year old guy sits in the 4 seat. Our end of the table was super polite to him, but he was really slow and decrepit. He's Old Decrepit Man (ODM).

Then the 3 seat leaves 15 minutes later and is replaced by a degenerate who talks about how good he is and how high stakes he usually plays, but is of course short stacking at lowest stakes no limit. We'll call him Super Douche (SD).

Anyway, SD sees a hand where ODM chases me down with K9 vs. my AQ on a AK489 no draw board and I bet all the way. I give him a "NH, sir" and move on to the next hand.

SD has already been annoying me with his nonsense, but he starts berating ODM with the standard "you suck, how can you play that way, K9, blah blah." I turn to SD and tell him to "lighten up." He immediately goes into the "are you going to make me?" (Objective 1 complete: take the bullseye off the fish.) I tell him that "I'm not going to make you do anything, I'm just asking you to lighten up. We have a fun table here."

He lets it go, then starts back up on the next hand when LPP asks "what's the bet, who raised?" again. I keep quiet but I notice the dealer give him a dirty look. Dealer pushes out, then 10 minutes later he goes on a break. I immediately look for the floor (dunno her name, but she doesn't take any crap from anyone, I like) and let her know that SD is wrecking the table. She tells me that she knows and is going to have a conversation with him when he gets back; dealer must have said something to her when he pushed out. (Objective 2 complete: Talk to the floor away from the game.)

When he gets back, he's good for 10 minutes then goes into the routine again, but worse. Starts fake delaying his action, pretending he's thinking. Berates LPP every time he shows down a hand (most were winning at this point with runner-runners or three outing two pair on the end). Tells a young asian kid to "go back to Canal Street" and then makes a *very* subtle jab at the gay fella in the 9 seat that I only think gay dude and myself caught. He finally busts his short stack thankfully and storms off ranting about how awful 1/2 players are.

He's still at the brush when the Poker Room Supervisor (Jim) wanders over to us and I stop him to tell him about SD. "The most obnoxious person I've ever seen in a poker room." He tells me not to worry, as "he's not allowed to play here any more." (Objective 3 complete: Show the table that I'm on their side and trying to look out for them.)

Apparently, he gets 86'ed regularly but always comes back. Even the floor said she wished she'd never see him again and he'd be perma-barred if it was her choice. I think I handled it as best I could as it was my first time dealing with that type of behavior at a casino ring game.

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

The problem with trying to get someone not to tap the tank is that by doing so, you are tapping another tank. I've tried to talk people out of repeatedly question someone's play, and usually get responses like, "I'm just curious how he can play those card," etc. The idea of wanting players to play bad cards and chase bad draws is lost on them.

I agree with trying to indirectly address it, sticking up for the player, diverting attention, etc. Maybe start playing more boisterously, spread feelings of goodwill, etc.

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

Nice post, thanks.

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

it depends what the table is like. A lot of the time it just doesn't matter. I've sat at 6/12 LHE tables full 100% losing players some being super fishy others just very mediocre, and they would berate eachother every few hands.

The action would go like this "How can you play that trash!?" says fish one, and then fish one cold calls a raise with j7o next hand.

It's somewhat rare IMO for a fish to actually leave or significantly tighten up after getting berated. Some of them probably get a kick out of dishing out some viscious beats, and maybe berating them causes them to try for more longshots.

The problem comes when a new player is there and wants to be in a social environment, but is made to feel uncomfortable or feel like he doesn't fit in. This happens frquently enough that berating fish has a longterm negative affect on game quality.

The easiest way to deal with it is to say "I thought he played it fine" however this might lead to a long strategy discussion which could make a new player feel even more uncomfortable.

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

pa3lsvt,

expert play all-around. Good story too. I like your writing.

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

I generally take the route of quietly saying "You played it fine. He's just pissed off because you have his chips." to the fish if he's seated nearby.

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

Tell him in no uncertain terms to stfu, quit berating other players now or you'll get the floor over here now. Everyone is allowed to play their hands however they want without comments from idiots who are too damn stupid to keep their big mouths shut when there are fish in the aquarium.

If that doesn't work, kick him in the nuts.

Al

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

Insist that seat 7 is a much better player than seat 4. Hopefully, seat 7 sticks around, the rest of the table joins in for a group mugging, and seat 4 is on tilt because you disrespected him. Continue needling seat 4 for as long as he runs his mouth.

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

Here's what I do:

Sometimes seat 7 will be the type who is playing the way he is with the goal of making people like seat 4 'insane'. As odd as it may sound there ARE some people who come to play poker to get their jollies that way. You don't need to comfort that type at all. As a matter of fact a 'Congrats! You're making them all nuts!' is in order.

If seat 7 doesn't appear overly disturbed by seat 4's berating I'll just keep repeating that different people play poker according to their own styles and, since it's THEIR money, they can do whatever they want.

Most commonly seat 7 will be a totally horrible player, unaware of how bad his play is, and doesn't like being told so. In that case I try to find ANY justification for the way he is playing and praise him for it more loudly than seat 4 is telling him off:

'He had a double-runner-runner gutshot'
'He flopped bottom pair and could've caught trips'
'He's really good at reading hands'
'He thought you were bluffing'
'He's on a tremendous rush. I'd play exactly like that if I
was on a tremendous rush' etc.

Lastly, you can just tell seat 7 outright that 'we are all here to have fun and don't pay attention to the nasty guy in seat 4 who's making all of us feel bad.'

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

i usually say stuff like

rather be lucky then good!
holy cow you're on a rush, if i was on your rush i'd play every hand!
to seat 4: you're just getting outplayed, watch him get even more upset, then laugh at him iwth seat 7
holy cow you can't miss!

reinforce their bad play, as being on a rush, and that they need to keep doing it.

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

I'll side with the fish - mostly I'll say "Everybody has different styles of play, his is working for him". In one case I played the same hand (well mine was suited), won with it, and then asked the nasty guy why he wasn't picking on me.

One time I got singled out as a "Fish" and the guy wouldn't stop putting me down. Finally a true fish asked the guy to shutup - pointed to the rules on the wall (it was Foxwoods) which stated that you are not allowed to comment on the play of others. Now I'm conflicted about going after the fish that stood by me.

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

I disagree with some of the posts in this thread in how they attempt to stick up for the bad player. Defenses like "he can play his cards any way he wants to" are very good. Misdirecting the player doing the berating is good. But trying to help the bad player justify his play is IMO not a good move most of the time. Frequently the bad player *knows* they are bad, but either doesn't care or just can't help themself. Furthermore they know that you are better than them. They may tolerate the needles of some ass who has to show how smart he is, but once you start patronizing them, you're making it very clear why you're doing it and IMO that is much more likely to drive them away from the table. They may not mind being called names or losing on their own terms, but no one wants to feel like they're getting taken advantage of. These people usually aren't stupid, they just aren't good at poker.

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

I think I know exactly this kid you are talking about at Harrahs AC. I have only played there twice but both times i played there it was with this same guy at both tables. He really is obnoxious and loud and just downright annoying, not surprisingly though both times I have played with him, I have watched him drop off about 2500. Once was playing 2/5 and the other was at a 1/2 game early into a saturday morning because the 2/5 game had broke. I wish I could remember his name because the first night I met him he was drunk and probably introduced himself 7 times. I like the room at harrahs, its just too cramped. When you have to turn around and say excuse me to the guy at the table behind you so you can get up, thats a problem.

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

Do people really buy it when you praise bad play? Isn't it insulting their intelligence?

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do people really buy it when you praise bad play? Isn't it insulting their intelligence?

[/ QUOTE ]
They do buy it when they have a big stack in front of them, IMO, (which is just about the only time I'll go that route). I'll usually point to their stack and say - "Seems to be working for him". Most people like to believe that they are not terrible poker players just terribly unlucky. When they are running good they attribute it more to: this is the way it should be, rather than dumb luck. Also, this has the added bonus of getting under the skin of the guy doing the insulting because he likely knows that a short term win means nothing.

My mentor tells me about a friend who is a smart guy in the world. He has dropped over $100k on-line and is working on $200k. My mentor asked him to read a book (Hilger I think). The guy gets back to my mentor and says he couldn't finish it because in the examples he knows that Hilger is wrong. He (the friend) says that he has just been extremely unlucky.

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

I was a bartender for about 10 years. One night, out of sheer boredom, I decided to try to be really nice to people.

Don't get me wrong, I am a nice guy and was a very sympathetic and friendly bartender. What I am talking about was being REALLY overly nice to folks.

I decided to pick a persons fault and compliment them on their lack of it. For instance, if someone was tight as a tick, I would say how generous they were. Or if they were really nasty to folks generally I would say something like "I know you can sometimes put up a hard front, but you are the nicest person in this place underneath, I know it."

Well, I started small and was amazed that anyone would take any compliment if it was offered well.

I tested it in the most outrageous ways and never had anyone catch on. Some might have denied it, but it was that kind of half-sincere denial that let me know they were definately taking the compliment.

So, I think being nice to the fish is a great thing to do. It will piss off the "authority" at the table and make the fish have more fun.

I never can understand why anyone feels the need to humiliate someone who just shows up to have a good time.

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

As long as the fish is smart enough to value bet when they hit I'd say to the other guy:

"Heck he had good odds to play that especially since you are dumb enough to call down"

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

[ QUOTE ]
6-12 Canterbury

I'm in seat 5. Seat 7 isn't playing ATC, but he's pretty darn close. Truly playing 85% of his cards. Since he's on a rush and seems to be sucking out every time, the table sees most of the cards he's playing.

Pretty soon, seat four starts ripping into him -- "How can you call with that crap .... Don't you know anything about poker, etc." I try to quietly tell him, let it go, but he is having none of it.

45 minutes (and three racks of chips) later Seat 7 gets up and leaves. At which point three other players rip into seat 4, explaining that when someone is betting like that, the last thing you want to do is mock him. That if Seat 7 is going to play those hands, we want to keep him here as long as possible, and that his actions probably drove the guy from the table.

Anyway -- the question before the floor, what do you do when someone at the table is berating someone you want to keep around?

[/ QUOTE ]



I prefer pointing out that person's own poker flaws, and try to get the table to chime in on them as well. It's very easy to do, and it shifts the momentum to them almost at once.

Many times they'll begin to act defensive, or attempt to justify their reasoning behind their poor decisions.

This'll immediately take the heat off of the person being berated by the so-called expert and shuts down the idiot once the microscope is turned upon themselves.




DUI

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

If sitting close to the fishy player, talk to him-her about other topics (not poker) and engage them so they don´t have to listen to the loudmouth tapper.

If close to the loudmouth, distract them by questioning them. "Sounds like you are on a losing streak." "Bitter, much?" "There is a seat open at the bigger game if you are bored here."

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

Very informative and well written reply. I like it. Proactive is cool.

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

[ QUOTE ]
i usually say stuff like

rather be lucky then good!
holy cow you're on a rush, if i was on your rush i'd play every hand!
to seat 4: you're just getting outplayed, watch him get even more upset, then laugh at him iwth seat 7
holy cow you can't miss!

reinforce their bad play, as being on a rush, and that they need to keep doing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

One i like:
The less you bet, the more you lose when you win!

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

I was recently at a table with a Fish Berater. He was semi-drunk, a decent LAG, one of the top 2-3 players at the table, but couldn't resist berating the fish. I saw 3 fish not rebuy at our table specifically because of him. This really bothered me and is why I am making this post, I think his attitude problems cost me real money.

He wasn't just berating their play, also their clothes, accent, hair, skin, etc. The fish were wonderfully awful. I loved that table.

I was getting the best of him, so I didn't want him to leave. I told one fish sitting next to me to stay (she was about to leave because of his abuse) because she was a much better player than him, and would beat him in the long run (even though I knew that was hogwash).

Now, if this ever happens again, what is my best course of action?

Talk to the player away from the table?

Talk to the Floor away from the table?

Which one should I try first and why?

Thanks

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

1.) Buy the fish a drink or 3 & ask them to tell the table their life story
2.) follow aquarium-tapper to the head at first opportunity for a curt STFU followed by a swift KITN

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

This is one of the biggest fallacies in all of poker. I hate reading this stuff. No matter what anyone says, berating fish 95% of the time has zero effect in any form. They don't leave the table, they don't take it to heart and change their style, and they sure as hell don't say to themselves "you know what, he's right, I do suck, right to HoH Volume 2 Monday morning!". Almost all of the time, the talk either leads to a small argument, or is ignored. The fish then continue doing what they do to define themselves, which is playing poorly. Someone calling PSB's on gutshots will not have a light go on in their head that indicates they should not do so simply because Seat 6 said "wow, thats bad". In fact, fish are MORE likely to continue their bad calldowns at a higher rate in order to show the so called great players that ANY TWO CAN WIN BABY AND IT'S ALL ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THE FLOP!

The examples listed are isolated ones. I'm sure for every story mentioned above, the people involved have been at 20 tables where fish didn't get up and leave. I personally am a talker, and play consistently with two other people whop verbally blast harder than I do, and rarely if ever have I seen someone leave or alter their play.

Bottom line, it's poker, not the opera, if someone wants to exercise their right to say what they feel, thats their business. People don't go to a casino in order to follow YOUR verbal demands in order to have YOUR winrate go up. If someone says something and you're not involved, mind your own business and use whatever you hear on either end to your advantage.

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

[ QUOTE ]

Bottom line, it's poker, not the opera, if someone wants to exercise their right to say what they feel, thats their business. People don't go to a casino in order to follow YOUR verbal demands in order to have YOUR winrate go up. If someone says something and you're not involved, mind your own business and use whatever you hear on either end to your advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody has the right to berate other players at the table. No-one. Most people play poker to have fun, less fun means they are less likely to come back.

You are just trying to justify your own tilty behavior.

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Try to engage the fish in friendly conversation and keep him happy.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's part 1. Part 2 is berating the other guy's play. Start nipping at him with little barbs about bad decisions. That has several benefits.
- it will take the heat off the fish
- it might tilt him since he's irritated already
- it will shut him up w.r.t. irritating the fish

If the fish is pretty intelligent, you have to be very subtle how you do this or else he'll know what you're doing. No matter how dumb the fish is, don't start brown-nosing his play overtly - anyone can figure that out.

By the way, some of the other players at the table will have a clue what you're doing, and all of them will probably be supportive of you, silently or not.

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

[ QUOTE ]
When he loses a pot with 3rd pair no kicker, shake your head in disgust while saying "oww, tough break" and talk to him for 15 minutes about his bad beat and how you cant believe his hand didnt hold up.

[/ QUOTE ]

A bit hamfisted, ne c'est pas? A lot of fish aren't stupid ya know. They know they're playing badly, they are just having fun and enjoying their gamble. They don't need to be patronized (unless they're stupid and have serious insecurity issues.)

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Nobody has the right to berate other players at the table. No-one. Most people play poker to have fun, less fun means they are less likely to come back.

You are just trying to justify your own tilty behavior.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bottom line, it's poker, not the opera, if someone wants to exercise their right to say what they feel, thats their business. People don't go to a casino in order to follow YOUR verbal demands in order to have YOUR winrate go up. If someone says something and you're not involved, mind your own business and use whatever you hear on either end to your advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is really your attitude about behavior in a PUBLIC cardroom, please do us a favor and stay home. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

People absolutely have the right to comment on other's play. Can you openly say, IM GOING TO KILL YOU YOU STUPID FISH $$#^%*&%^&$%@#$#@? No. Should you be throwing around curses or words like suck, etc, or making a huge scene and disrupting the game? No. However, you certainly have the right to discuss hands and indicate how you felt about someone's play so long as you are not violating the rules. If venting makes you feel better, go right ahead, thats your business. As for my own tilty behavior, I say things about plenty of routine hands, including those I've won and about my own play. Rarely is it done as a form of tilt or to verbally wash away a bad night.

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

[ QUOTE ]
People absolutely have the right to comment on other's play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes you may have a right to behave like this; but is it really necessary? If you require this type of behavior to "get an edge" on your opponents, then I strongly suggest you play, practice, read, and think about the game more as it will make you a much better player than using "guerilla poker tactics." [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bottom line, it's poker, not the opera, if someone wants to exercise their right to say what they feel, thats their business.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I have the right to say what I feel as well.

[ QUOTE ]
People don't go to a casino in order to follow YOUR verbal demands in order to have YOUR winrate go up. If someone says something and you're not involved, mind your own business and use whatever you hear on either end to your advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's only common sense that I do what I can to improve my winrate. If that means making a fish more comfortable (even if it has only a certain percentage chance of working) or irritating someone I want to leave or tilt (even if it has only a certain percentage chance of working), then I'm going to do it.

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

These aren't guerrilla poker tactics at all. I surely don't need to "read up" as you suggest in order to counteract some measure of verbal abuse I apply to gain an edge, I have no idea where you got this from, I didn't come within miles of saying this.

It's not, and shouldn't be, a big part of anyone's game. once in awhile, there may be some value to it. Otherwise, it's simply blowing off steam and being able to vent against someone you know you're better than. Is it necessary? No, I'm sure you can do quite fine without it, but if it's something you feel you want to do, then that's your right to do so.

As far as the winrate, you have the right to comfort the fish if you want, but don't get involved in other people's conversations about hands you're not involved in, and don't become some sort of moral police advocate against speaking out simply because you fear the 2% chance that the donk in Seat 3 will leave.

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

You absolutely have the right to be an [censored] if you want to be. The rest of us have the right to point it out that you are, in fact, being an [censored], and that your behavior is socially unacceptable.

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

Firestorm, is your idol Phil Hellmuth?

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

[ QUOTE ]
But trying to help the bad player justify his play is IMO not a good move most of the time. Frequently the bad player *knows* they are bad, but either doesn't care or just can't help themself. Furthermore they know that you are better than them. They may tolerate the needles of some ass who has to show how smart he is, but once you start patronizing them, you're making it very clear why you're doing it and IMO that is much more likely to drive them away from the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does it hurt much when you talk like this out of your rectum?

Re: Don\'t tap the Tank -- How do you handle this.
 

"If someone says something and you're not involved, mind your own business and use whatever you hear on either end to your advantage."

That pretty much make the point that the way to handle a berater and fish depends on the circumstances. Sometimes it's better to fend of the attacker, sometimes it's better to befriend the fish.

If I sense that the berater is the type that can't take a bit of his own medicine, then I go after him and get him to tilt. When I find a twit who thinks he can say anything that's on his mind, but no one else has the same right to mock him, then I know I'm in for some fun!