New dealer makes rake mistake... call floor?
 

Venetian last night. 2/5 NL full game. The game is raked, 1 on 10, 1 on 20, 1 on 50 and 1 on 90 (great rake). No flop, no drop.

The dealer is one of the many temporary dealers they hired for the deepstack extravaganza. One player limps in, I make my standard $25 raise, everyone folds. So the pot is $17 (BB + SB + limp + my 5). The dealer pushes me the pot and there are no white chips. I figure she forgot to make change for the SB, so I grab three whites to toss to him when I realize I was pushed only $35 (my own 25 + BB + limp).

I look at the dealer and ask where the other two dollars are. She says right here, points to the drop thingy, and then drops them. I ask her why she dropped, and she says the pot was over 20 and that means $2 drop. I say "no flop, no drop" and she looks at me like I'm speaking gibberish. One of the other players repeats, "no flop no drop" but she still doesn't understand.

(Note that not only did she drop when she shouldn't have, she even miscalculated the pot and dropped too much.)

She is about to be pushed, so she turns to the dealer behind her and asks what is going on. That dealer explains that if there is no flop, she should not take any rake. She nods and stands up to move to the next table.

Do I slow up the game to call the floor over my missing $2? (Not to mention whatever other money she dropped during the half that she shouldn't have?)

Re: New dealer makes rake mistake... call floor?
 

stop game call floor if you want your 2 bucks back. Also do you always tip 10%? if so can I deal to you :P

Re: New dealer makes rake mistake... call floor?
 

At the "V" when this happens they will short drop the next drop. No guaranty you will win the next hand and receive the $2.00 back.

Re: New dealer makes rake mistake... call floor?
 

Yes, I would absolutely call the floor. If the dealer was actually clueless and consistantly over-raking the pot, she should be fired. Even if there wasn't "no flop, no drop", she should have only raked $1, right?

I have seen dealers called out for making a rake mistake before, and they have always just taken a dollar out of the rack and given to the player. But I think there is a big difference between making a mistake in calculating the pot, and not knowing the basic rules for how much to rake.

Re: New dealer makes rake mistake... call floor?
 

I've seen a dealer make a rake mistake and call the floor himself without hesitation. IIRC they made it up on the next pot and the winner tossed the extra chip to the guy that was shorted.

Re: New dealer makes rake mistake... call floor?
 

Definitely call the floor. You should be refunded the $2 out of the next rake before it is dropped, but even if they don't do that, it is important that the bad dealer be corrected and that supervision be aware of the problem.

Re: New dealer makes rake mistake... call floor?
 

yep, call the floor

Re: New dealer makes rake mistake... call floor?
 

That's one of those where I might just leave it alone and let the dealer go tokeless. Basically "that was your toke that you dropped--if you want the $2 we can call the floor" and let the dealer fight the floor if he thinks it's worth it for $2. Odds are good the dealer will prefer to just be silent and not call attention to his error. When I've seen folks throw a fit over this sorta thing, I think at least half the time the dealer will just pull $1 or $2 outta his pocket to pay the player--I imagine they figure it's worth $2 to avoid having the boss hear the tale.

Re: New dealer makes rake mistake... call floor?
 

When I first started dealing, I can remember throwing a chip or two peoples' way for such errors. While dealing is a fairly easy job, there are still a lot of little things to keep track of, which can be a bit much for a new dealer who may not be intimately familiar with the game. This is certainly not something over which to make a stink, and shaming or belittling the dealer won't help either. It just sucks in an incredibly mild way relative to everything else that sucks in the world. Shrug it off. Find the dealer on a break and suggest she talk to her dealer captain about drop procedure.

These days, if I was being pushed, I'd just give the chips to make it easy and spread happy karma. It's only two bucks, and I'm responsible for my errors. If I was dealing the next hand, I drop less and give the extra to the OP.

Re: New dealer makes rake mistake... call floor?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is certainly not something over which to make a stink, and shaming or belittling the dealer won't help either.

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Based on the story, it appears that this is not an isolated mistake. This is the dealer misunderstanding the rake in a manner that is costing players money. If you raise the issue, it is not to shame the dealer but to protect all of the players in the game. If the dealer takes a couple of dollars she shouldn't from every preflop win (and miscounts the pots to the disadvantage of the players), it could add up to a significant amount of money off the table over the course of the evening. (I won't try to make an accurate estimate, but $75 to $100 certainly seems possible.)

Re: New dealer makes rake mistake... call floor?
 

If the dealer doesn't give you your $2 of course call the floor. The dealer shorted your pot, "it's only $2" has nothing to do with it.

Re: New dealer makes rake mistake... call floor?
 

[ QUOTE ]
appears that this is not an isolated mistake

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Fair enough. I was replying to recent replies and forgot some of the details.

Still, I'd discuss it away from the table. Calling over the boss of a new dealer to talk about it in front of her will fluster the dealer and make her more prone to mistakes.

Re: New dealer makes rake mistake... call floor?
 

I would call the floor for this - dealers should learn proper rake procedures for the games they deal.

Jeff

Re: New dealer makes rake mistake... call floor?
 

You don't necessarily have to slow up the game since there is a new dealer coming in. Instead, immediately call for a floor, or go get one. Too much rake, or innappropriately taken rake, is the cardinal sin of dealers. I wouldn't stand for it, but you don't have to ruin anyone's day or make a huge scene about it either.
Al

Re: New dealer makes rake mistake... call floor?
 

If I was the next dealer pushing in I'd just give you 2 dollars from my tray and then get that back from what would have been the next 2 dollars I'd rake. But I'm sure that violates every game law in existence.

Re: New dealer makes rake mistake... call floor?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
appears that this is not an isolated mistake

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. I was replying to recent replies and forgot some of the details.

Still, I'd discuss it away from the table. Calling over the boss of a new dealer to talk about it in front of her will fluster the dealer and make her more prone to mistakes.

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Overraking is a very serious thing, and scarcely a day goes by that I don't have to correct a fairly new dealer to not be taking too much rake. The house gets enough money as it is; they don't need more than they are entitled to on top of that.

The point is not to shame the dealer (the correction can be done nicely) but to prevent the house from stealing from you (albeit inadvertently). There is no need to wait to do it away from the table.

If the dealer takes too little rake and the casino notices, don't you think the casino would consider that a big deal? Well the same applies the other way too: if the dealer takes too much from the players, the players should consider it a big deal. That doesn't mean a big huge fuss has to be made out of it, but it should be called to attention and and rectified immediately.

We really don't want dealers thinking that as long as they don't underrake, they are doing their job right. Right for the rake is not "at least what is supposed to be, and occasionally more if I forgot how big the pot is" but that's seems to be what some (mostly new) dealers think.

One of the commonest mistakes occurs when the dealer doesn't actually track the pot mentally at all but just guesses at it and takes another dollar too soon. Watch the pots, and I bet you'll see this before long. Even if it isn't your own dollar you are saving, the other players will be grateful to you for saving them money.

Re: New dealer makes rake mistake... call floor?
 

Thanks for the comments everyone.

I looked around for a floorman but didn't see one in close vicinity to call over so I just let it go.

Re: New dealer makes rake mistake... call floor?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If I was the next dealer pushing in I'd just give you 2 dollars from my tray and then get that back from what would have been the next 2 dollars I'd rake. But I'm sure that violates every game law in existence.

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Not necessarily. That's how we'd fix it at my casino.

Re: New dealer makes rake mistake... call floor?
 

Two things:

1) Working from a tray makes this an easy fix, and

2) [ QUOTE ]
The dealer is one of the many temporary dealers

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Rake mistakes are common rookie errors, and that's what most of these temp dealers are. It's easy to pick on new dealers, but it's even easier (not to mention better for the game) to help them along.

Also, FWIW, in my experience new dealers are just as likley to forget the rake entirely than they are to over-rake.

Re: New dealer makes rake mistake... call floor?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I would absolutely call the floor. If the dealer was actually clueless and consistantly over-raking the pot, she should be fired. Even if there wasn't "no flop, no drop", she should have only raked $1, right?

I have seen dealers called out for making a rake mistake before, and they have always just taken a dollar out of the rack and given to the player. But I think there is a big difference between making a mistake in calculating the pot, and not knowing the basic rules for how much to rake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I think firing someone over an honest mistake, especially when it sounds like she wasn't trained properly, is a fantastic idea.

Re: New dealer makes rake mistake... call floor?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I would absolutely call the floor. If the dealer was actually clueless and consistantly over-raking the pot, she should be fired. Even if there wasn't "no flop, no drop", she should have only raked $1, right?

I have seen dealers called out for making a rake mistake before, and they have always just taken a dollar out of the rack and given to the player. But I think there is a big difference between making a mistake in calculating the pot, and not knowing the basic rules for how much to rake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I think firing someone over an honest mistake, especially when it sounds like she wasn't trained properly, is a fantastic idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you are probably right that she wasn't trained correctly and this is not so much her fault. But whoever's fault it is, a dealer not knowing the rake rules is absolutely outrageous. Who knows how much money she has (inadvertantly or not) cheated the customers out of?

This is really much worse than just about any other rules mistake because it (a) is helps the house, and thus the house has an incentive not to correct it, and (b) it is difficult for players to detect unless they are really paying attention to the dealer.

Re: New dealer makes rake mistake... call floor?
 

[ QUOTE ]
1 on 10, 1 on 20, 1 on 50 and 1 on 90

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question - is it standard to include money that has already been raked in this? This is probably more relevant in limit where it's almost always exact bet amounts (eg 2 on the flop, 1 at 3 bets, 1 at 6 bets). By the time it gets to 3 actual bets that go in there is really only 3 bets minus $2 already raked in the pot. Is it standard to include the rake?

Also, are uncalled bets included? I assume not.

kind of a nitty point, I know. and I assume this usually comes down to house policy, just wondering if there is a standard.

Re: New dealer makes rake mistake... call floor?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1 on 10, 1 on 20, 1 on 50 and 1 on 90

[/ QUOTE ]

question - is it standard to include money that has already been raked in this? This is probably more relevant in limit where it's almost always exact bet amounts (eg 2 on the flop, 1 at 3 bets, 1 at 6 bets). By the time it gets to 3 actual bets that go in there is really only 3 bets minus $2 already raked in the pot. Is it standard to include the rake?

Also, are uncalled bets included? I assume not.

kind of a nitty point, I know. and I assume this usually comes down to house policy, just wondering if there is a standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Generally, the rake is on the total pot (including the rake already taken). uncalled bets are not in the pot and are not included. That is how I always understood it.

Re: New dealer makes rake mistake... call floor?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1 on 10, 1 on 20, 1 on 50 and 1 on 90

[/ QUOTE ]

question - is it standard to include money that has already been raked in this? This is probably more relevant in limit where it's almost always exact bet amounts (eg 2 on the flop, 1 at 3 bets, 1 at 6 bets). By the time it gets to 3 actual bets that go in there is really only 3 bets minus $2 already raked in the pot. Is it standard to include the rake?

Also, are uncalled bets included? I assume not.

kind of a nitty point, I know. and I assume this usually comes down to house policy, just wondering if there is a standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Generally, the rake is on the total pot (including the rake already taken). uncalled bets are not in the pot and are not included. That is how I always understood it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is correct.