Live 3/6 KTs hand
 

Typical LP game with one exception. Villian to my immediate right is too loose preflop, but somewhat TAGish postflop.

Hero is in MP with K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Preflop: 1 EP limper, Villian limps, Hero limps, 2 LP limpers, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (7 Players)
EP checks, Villian bets, Hero raise, 1 LP fold, 1 LP call, SB calls, BB and EP fold, Villian 3-bets, Hero calls, rest call.

Turn: (9 BB) T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 Players)
SB checks, Villian bets, Hero Raises, folded back to Villian who calls.

River: (13 BB) T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Villian checks, Hero bets, Villian calls.

It seemed clear after the hand that the turn raise completely minimized my profits for this hand. Is this a clear place to go for overcalls? I get so used to putting on the gas in these lowlimit games, I sometimes miss these occational "slowplay" opportunities...

Re: Live 3/6 KTs hand
 

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Typical LP game with one exception. Villian to my immediate right is too loose preflop, but somewhat TAGish postflop.

Hero is in MP with K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Preflop: 1 EP limper, Villian limps, Hero limps, 2 LP limpers, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (7 Players)
EP checks, Villian bets, Hero raise, 1 LP fold, 1 LP call, SB calls, BB and EP fold, Villian 3-bets, Hero calls, rest call.

Turn: (9 BB) T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 Players)
SB checks, Villian bets, Hero Raises, folded back to Villian who calls.

River: (13 BB) T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Villian checks, Hero bets, Villian calls.

It seemed clear after the hand that the turn raise completely minimized my profits for this hand. Is this a clear place to go for overcalls? I get so used to putting on the gas in these lowlimit games, I sometimes miss these occational "slowplay" opportunities...

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raise PF. you have a suited broadway and should exploit your equity edge.

flop fine.

i would call the turn to induce overcalls as you're only getting cold called by a chop.

Re: Live 3/6 KTs hand
 

the 10 on the turn ruins any draws, so i think a raise here is good.i dont see anyone calling here without at least an 8, so get the price from villian

Re: Live 3/6 KTs hand
 

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the 10 on the turn ruins any draws, so i think a raise here is good.i dont see anyone calling here without at least an 8, so get the price from villian

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true but if villain has a T then raising is pointless. no one calls this turn raise with an 8, but they prob will call one bet.

Re: Live 3/6 KTs hand
 

I wonder if we should fold the flop to the 3bet. I can't imagine we are good here very often and even though the pot has become bloated we arn't getting odds to spike a two outter and the fact that two people called our raise makes me think both tens probably not in the deck.

I just call preflop (but this is close - I'm raising KJs) and go for overs on the turn. J9/97 might call one bet here but no way they are calling two. Of course we lose value if somebody behind us has an 8 and calls down who would have gone to showdown for more bets.

Re: Live 3/6 KTs hand
 

raise pf.

Re: Live 3/6 KTs hand
 

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no one folds to this turn raise with an 8

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FYP.

Re: Live 3/6 KTs hand
 

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raise pf.

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Call preflop. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Really its close but but SSH standard is raise KJs in MP, call KTs, and raise both in LP.

The line of course has to be drawn somewhere and I'm happy with it being J/T.

Re: Live 3/6 KTs hand
 

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raise pf.

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Call preflop. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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are you on the drugs again? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

seriously. raising has sooooo many benefits. you're isolating loose limpers. you often have the best hand. you buy the button a good portion of the time. you set up fold equity on the flop when a number of scarecards come. you can take a free card on the flop if you wish. so many good things come from raising. raise. raise! raise!!!

Re: Live 3/6 KTs hand
 

Except for not raising PF, this seems okay to me I guess.. although not raising the turn would have probably kept 1 or 2 of the 3 players who folded out to your raise. Sometimes it's good to wait until the river to raise, in order to avoid someone c/c'ing in front of you. Of course hindsight is 20/20, and in this hand a turn call would have paid handsomely for you, since most of the five remaining players would be tempted to play the board after the river T.

Re: Live 3/6 KTs hand
 

I think our equity edge pf, if any, is minute. The benefits of raising would be to get position on the 2 limpers along with our fold equity and our, hopefully, better post-flop play. If we can't expect players to fold behind then I don't like the raise because KTs will play ok multiway and raising hurts our implied odds, especially when we do not have position.

Re: Live 3/6 KTs hand
 

Interesting hand. PF raise I like better than limping in but it is not what I would call a horrible mistake. The rest looks fine but the turn has me thinking a lot now. I hate to slowplay in LLHE but like the OP said there are some rare occasions to do it and go for an overcall. I think I like a turn call more and more here.

Re: Live 3/6 KTs hand
 

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raise pf.

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Call preflop. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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are you on the drugs again? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

seriously. raising has sooooo many benefits. you're isolating loose limpers. you often have the best hand. you buy the button a good portion of the time. you set up fold equity on the flop when a number of scarecards come. you can take a free card on the flop if you wish. so many good things come from raising. raise. raise! raise!!!

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What's the lowest king suited you are raising here and whats the earliest position you are raising KTs?

I'd rather have more people in the hand to try and win a huge pot when we make a big hand rather than reducing the field so we are more likely to win when we miss/hit one pair. But atleast we arn't arguing over playing or folding. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Live 3/6 KTs hand
 

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the 10 on the turn ruins any draws, so i think a raise here is good.i dont see anyone calling here without at least an 8, so get the price from villian

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However Ax and Kx often overcall here even if there's no way they're good.

Re: Live 3/6 KTs hand
 

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What's the lowest king suited you are raising here and whats the earliest position you are raising KTs?

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KTs is pretty much the cutoff. K9s for sure.

the limpers need to have very low standards to make much worse than that correct. that, or our raise needs to be able to fold out hands like KT or KJ which can be unusual in a live game.

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I'd rather have more people in the hand to try and win a huge pot when we make a big hand rather than reducing the field so we are more likely to win when we miss/hit one pair.

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scooping a big pot when you hit your draw is great, but you're going to win the most often with top pair. raising will help make sure it stands up when you hit it. there are counters to this argument, but the fishiness of the live games will overrule them. remember, these guys will often pay off with very, very weak holdings.

Re: Live 3/6 KTs hand
 

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What's the lowest king suited you are raising here and whats the earliest position you are raising KTs?

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KTs is pretty much the cutoff. K9s for sure.

the limpers need to have very low standards to make much worse than that correct. that, or our raise needs to be able to fold out hands like KT or KJ which can be unusual in a live game.

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I'd rather have more people in the hand to try and win a huge pot when we make a big hand rather than reducing the field so we are more likely to win when we miss/hit one pair.

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scooping a big pot when you hit your draw is great, but you're going to win the most often with top pair. raising will help make sure it stands up when you hit it. there are counters to this argument, but the fishiness of the live games will overrule them. remember, these guys will often pay off with very, very weak holdings.

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With that reasoning would you not play KTo here then also?

Re: Live 3/6 KTs hand
 

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With that reasoning would you not play KTo here then also?

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not necessarily. it doesn't have as many ways to win.

say we raise KTo and get a couple coldcallers plus the blinds. we are in much worse shape multiway than we are with KTs.

KTs is still an equity hog multiway. it has more ways to win than just top pair. say we flop a strong draw in an unraised pot. if we river a King or Ten it holds up much less often 6 handed than it does 3 or 4 handed. these pots add up to a pretty significant sum over time.

as usual, the true function of the correct play is typically dictated by the preflop standards and postflop crappiness of the limpers relative to our pre and postflop edges over their play. this should be inherent in all of our decision-making. likewise, anytime we put pressure on those behind us and encourage them to fold a hand like A7 or KJ we gain tremendously.