LC - Bubble Pushing w/ shortie
 

I'm getting some weird pushing ranges here from sngwiz. What do you think our pushing range should be ?

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t200/t400
4 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t4000
Hero: t3000
SB: t600
BB: t5000

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG folds, Hero ???

For lazy ppl:
a) 33+,A7+,A2s+,KQs
b) 66+, A9+, A8s+
c) 99+, AQ+, AJs+
d) TT+, AQ+

Re: LC - Bubble Pushing w/ shortie
 

probably d)

I might limp here.

Re: LC - Bubble Pushing w/ shortie
 

Hmm... didn't even consider limping. I like...

Re: LC - Bubble Pushing w/ shortie
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm... didn't even consider limping. I like...

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
I'd pick c I guess.

Re: LC - Bubble Pushing w/ shortie
 

C)

But I dislike limping here.
If you limp, it's an easy push for the BB.

Re: LC - Bubble Pushing w/ shortie
 

[ QUOTE ]
C)

But I dislike limping here.
If you limp, it's an easy push for the BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

The goal is to ensure that SB can not get outta here.

(hello Grenoble)

Re: LC - Bubble Pushing w/ shortie
 

Without a read I'd probably shove d. I like limping if short stack isn't the kind of fish that's going to fold here.

Btw: I noticed the latest upgrade of SNGWiz causes it to give completely stupid suggestions for party hands, I reinstalled the previous version yesterday.

Re: LC - Bubble Pushing w/ shortie
 

you can't push here. The best move is to limp/call SB's push, and fold if BB pushes over you.

Re: LC - Bubble Pushing w/ shortie
 

I push with C, too . I also see no sense in limping.

Re: LC - Bubble Pushing w/ shortie
 

if you fold here, the sb pushes. If the BB knows how to play the bubble, he will fold.

If you limp and the small blind pushes, two things will happen. The BB will push/call and you will fold/call, or the BB will fold and you will call. This way you ensure that the SB does not pick up the free blinds.

Re: LC - Bubble Pushing w/ shortie
 

Well anyways, the new version of sngwiz gave me a) and that is quite obiously wrong.

Personally I think even d) is too wide, I would limp a wide range (so as not to let the SB get away. ever.) and push JJ+,AK.

Re: LC - Bubble Pushing w/ shortie
 

Sng Wiz (not last version anyway) gives something close to c) against plausible ranges.

Re: LC - Bubble Pushing w/ shortie
 

I limp here, calling SB shove obv

Re: LC - Bubble Pushing w/ shortie
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you fold here, the sb pushes. If the BB knows how to play the bubble, he will fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think thats right, especially not in a case where he is going to get called a lot wider than he should be if he tries to continue owning the bubble.

Re: LC - Bubble Pushing w/ shortie
 

The Wizard's calculations were correct, but the new opponent modeling was coming up with a calling range for the big blind that was way too tight when the hero folds and the small blind pushes. I have posted a new release that fixes the problem.

Re: LC - Bubble Pushing w/ shortie
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you fold here, the sb pushes. If the BB knows how to play the bubble, he will fold.

If you limp and the small blind pushes, two things will happen. The BB will push/call and you will fold/call, or the BB will fold and you will call. This way you ensure that the SB does not pick up the free blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]Does anyone disagree? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: LC - Bubble Pushing w/ shortie
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you fold here, the sb pushes. If the BB knows how to play the bubble, he will fold.

If you limp and the small blind pushes, two things will happen. The BB will push/call and you will fold/call, or the BB will fold and you will call. This way you ensure that the SB does not pick up the free blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]Does anyone disagree? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Does the BB not fold here if the sb pushes? I mean I've seen it happen a lot in the 6.50s, but it's more of a CL not wanting to lose chips. I don't like pushing KQs into the leader with the sb being 600. I call here because it ensures that the sb cannot push and have the bb fold to keep the bubble going for whatever reason.

Re: LC - Bubble Pushing w/ shortie
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you fold here, the sb pushes. If the BB knows how to play the bubble, he will fold.

If you limp and the small blind pushes, two things will happen. The BB will push/call and you will fold/call, or the BB will fold and you will call. This way you ensure that the SB does not pick up the free blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]Does anyone disagree? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree that BB folding to a shove from SB is correct, and I also don't think that hardly any player would fold that.

I think limping is fine against most players, especially if the BB isn't playing aggressive. I would limp, and call a shove from the short stack if BB calls or folds and I would fold to a shove from BB. If the big stack is playing aggressive on the bubble there is no reason to call here IMO, it will just lose you a BB.

Re: LC - Bubble Pushing w/ shortie
 

shove or fold. none of this limping BS.

Re: LC - Bubble Pushing w/ shortie
 

[ QUOTE ]

I think limping is fine against most players, especially if the BB isn't playing aggressive. I would limp, and call a shove from the short stack if BB calls or folds and I would fold to a shove from BB. If the big stack is playing aggressive on the bubble there is no reason to call here IMO, it will just lose you a BB.


[/ QUOTE ]

agreed

Re: LC - Bubble Pushing w/ shortie
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you fold here, the sb pushes. If the BB knows how to play the bubble, he will fold.

If you limp and the small blind pushes, two things will happen. The BB will push/call and you will fold/call, or the BB will fold and you will call. This way you ensure that the SB does not pick up the free blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]Does anyone disagree? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree that BB folding to a shove from SB is correct, and I also don't think that hardly any player would fold that.

I think limping is fine against most players, especially if the BB isn't playing aggressive. I would limp, and call a shove from the short stack if BB calls or folds and I would fold to a shove from BB. If the big stack is playing aggressive on the bubble there is no reason to call here IMO, it will just lose you a BB.

[/ QUOTE ]what exactly are you not agreeing with in the original post? It has pretty much everything that can happen covered!

Re: LC - Bubble Pushing w/ shortie
 

Did Party change their structure or something? These stack sizes are way off. Last time I played Party you have 2k chips to start and 10 players to a table for a total 20k chips in play. In this example, there are 7400 chips missing from play.

Re: LC - Bubble Pushing w/ shortie
 

I only don't agree with the first statement that BB should and would fold to a SB shove if everyone else folded so he can preserve the bubble. I don't think it is correct for BB to fold in that situation, and I also don't think hardly anyone would even consider it.

Re: LC - Bubble Pushing w/ shortie
 

BB's chiplead isn't large enough to really consider keeping the short stack alive. Plus trying to keep the bubble alive is usually not correct at low stakes games because the players don't play tight enough for you to really take advantage of it.