There must be a standard line here
 

I open raise A5s on the button and a 30/20 not-terrible TAG 3bets from the SB. I call, we take the flop heads up and it's A96 with no suits. TAG bets out.

I can see a few lines here:

1) Raise flop. The old fashioned, caveman style "ME HIT FLOP ME RAISE" line. Maybe end up folding somewhere along the line.
2) Play WA/WB: one bet on every street.
3) Raise the turn:
3a) check behind on river
3b) bet river
most likely folding if the turn gets threebet or if the river gets sexied.

Which do you take as a default and why? When you mix it up, what's the mix and why?

Guy.

Re: There must be a standard line here
 

Pretty much always #2.

Re: There must be a standard line here
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pretty much always #2.

[/ QUOTE ]

because it usally wins most when ahead and looses least when behind of course [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: There must be a standard line here
 

I play WA/WB here all the time.

Re: There must be a standard line here
 

Id say if you pick up a timing tell(unlikely) then you could raise IF your opponent knows that you woudl almsot always play way ahead/way behind here

Re: There must be a standard line here
 

1 and 3 sucks IMO

If the board is more drawy I raise the flop. But I am not folding.

Re: There must be a standard line here
 

I get to the end as cheap as possible. Unless I improve. I think approx 1/2 the hands in his range have you beat...but you'll split now and again by the end. So it is #2 for me.

I assume that when you all say "way ahead/way behind" you infer getting to the end cheap?

Re: There must be a standard line here
 

2s way better than anything else

call call raise river would be a distant second vs most, but perhaps correct vs some.

most people will fire KK-TT or even 77-88 all 3 streets but will sometimes fold when u put that raise in and u often lose air KQ QJ ect immediately that may not be able to stop firing if u stay passive.

Re: There must be a standard line here
 

[ QUOTE ]

I assume that when you all say "way ahead/way behind" you infer getting to the end cheap?

[/ QUOTE ]

In position this usually means making sure one bet goes in on every street: call if he bets, bet if he checks.

[ QUOTE ]

I think approx 1/2 the hands in his range have you beat


[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree because there are only four aces in the deck and we can see two of them.

Guy.

Re: There must be a standard line here
 

i agree we are ahead of his range, but thta doesnt always mean we should raise obviously

the reason we shouldnt raise is becuz a) the hands we beat in his range, underpairs and 2 broadway cards, are drawing to 2 outs or runners, and wont pay off our raises, however they often will bet themselves as we know from all our over aggro opponents and b) the better hands TPGK and sets will usually charge us extra if we put in a raise rather than go instantly into CD mode, so that decreases the EV of any line involving a raise unless we could always fold correctly to further aggression but we generally cant and should show this hand done with as little head ache as possible i feel.

fwiw id fold to a turn screwplay or river sexy here when takin WA WB unless its a known super spaz

Re: There must be a standard line here
 

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

I think approx 1/2 the hands in his range have you beat


[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree because there are only four aces in the deck and we can see two of them.

Guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, I'm wrong, I like #2 even more now.

Re: There must be a standard line here
 

One thing I'll do if like the board is

A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] - he bets, I call

I'll raise like the 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] turn

Re: There must be a standard line here
 

why???
i really think he doesn t fold is AX

Re: There must be a standard line here
 

because i can't get 3-bet

Re: There must be a standard line here
 

[ QUOTE ]
One thing I'll do if like the board is

A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] - he bets, I call

I'll raise like the 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] turn

[/ QUOTE ]

That's pretty interesting.

I was also wondering about raising when a broadway card hits the turn. You stand a decent chance of getting paid off, if he's hit that card; you get to protect your hand a bit versus gutshot draws that will most likely check-fold the river UI anyway; and again you're pretty unlikely to be threebet by anything you beat or split with. Anyone like?

Guy.

Re: There must be a standard line here
 

i like raising the board pairing bdfd cards, u get alot of light calldowns on that card (atleast from me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ), but after u raise this turn do u have a clear vb on the river?

And if u raise/fold to a 3bet on a broadway card and the board is A96K and he finds a good 3bet with TPTK (easier to do if u are habitually raising the turn here with TPNK), u miss out on 3 outs for the win and 6 for the chop, getting like 10:1 now. and again if u raise this turn, whats the correct river action? His range is much stronger after he calls ur raise on a K Q or J turn.

i think u just get urself in trouble and end up with ambiguous decisions on the river or when faced with a 3bet (particularly against unknowns). The major plus side tho is metagame, if he cant respect a turn raise since it could be any draw or any TP u get paid off more later. Not sure its always worth gaining that to give up some by taking a slightly less than optimal line thats a bit too aggressive (raise turn on a 9 6 or broadway, and bet a blank river), since we ll probably be semi-bluffing enough already in many other spots.

Re: There must be a standard line here
 

If you get 3-bet on turn by a decent LAG/TAG on a non-pair board your hand is dead anyways (I know some people don´t believe that. But that is a fact).So the board pairing don´t give us any reason to raise if we didn´t find it suitable on a non-paired board.
The only thing you accomplish with a turn raise on a paired board is that you may scare TT-KK to fold since they now realize that there are more possible hands that has the potential to beat their PP.
Most of the value from playing WA/WB in the first place is to avoid folding worse hands which makes this line some kind of contraproductive.

Re: There must be a standard line here
 

One thing I'll say is that raising the turn doesn't make any sense unless you can value bet the river.

Re: There must be a standard line here
 

I hate WA/WB lines but I think it is by far the best in this case when we have position.
I think raising turn and check behind is second best. But that depends on the turn card.

Re: There must be a standard line here
 

[ QUOTE ]
i like raising the board pairing bdfd cards, u get alot of light calldowns on that card (atleast from me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ), but after u raise this turn do u have a clear vb on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

1st part answers 2nd part.

This play also substantiates future turn raises and wins $ when you do raise the turn and AK is like "WTF LOL" later on. because they "learned"

Re: There must be a standard line here
 

danza, the problem with raising the turn on an A966 or A969 board is that the range of hands that bet/call the turn is crushing your hand.

The vast majority of people would check that turn with a pair below aces and if he has like KQ or QJ you want to give him a chance to pair or bluff the river. If he does bet those turns with a pair below aces, there's a good chance he will fold to your raise.

Re: There must be a standard line here
 

this is probably the worst post i've made in a long time but

i wouldn't raise the turn against people who are only bet/calling with better hands. Those people know me well enough to 3-bet me with AT there.

I like a turn raise when i'm doing it to let them play bad. I guess a better example would be an AT6 board because a lot of people bet/call with QJ/KQ/KJ there.

It's not an "always" kinda thing. There are 2 turn cards i'd do it on and then only like 1/3 at that, just something I'm throwing out there.

Your point is valid though.