My first play along - 44 flops a draw
 

I decided to make this a play along because there are about 3 spots in this hand where I am not certain of the right move. I hope it isn't painfully obvious or anything. Since I'm not sure how the response will go, I'll just post each part in about 5 or 10 minute intervals. There should be only 3 parts.
-thanks
Christian

My very first hand at the table. No reads.

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Toolfrom

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $0.02.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="red">MP2 raises</font>, MP3 (poster) calls, 2 folds</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (14 SB) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (7 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks (Betting here is very bad - agree?), UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="red">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="red">MP2 raises</font>, MP3 calls, SB folds, Hero calls (pot is just too big to let this go, right?), UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, <font color="red">MP1 3-bets</font>, <font color="red">MP2 caps</font>, MP3 calls, Hero?????? </font>

Re: My first play along - 44 flops a draw
 

Ugh.

First, I think 10min is too fast. Then, you can't really fold now, since the pot is 10385660SB big and you only have to win it once between now and the eschaton. So call.

Re: My first play along - 44 flops a draw
 

I'm thinkin we have 10 maybe 11.5 outs here. We are callin this one. (In before the play along police.)

Re: My first play along - 44 flops a draw
 

C/C looks good to me.

you obv cannot fold the flop here.

Re: My first play along - 44 flops a draw
 

[ QUOTE ]
(In before the play along police.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not certain but I think the point of the play along is to discuss each decision before you show us what you've done, so your first post is actually 3 posts in one; pre-flop, flop check, flop call.

Re: My first play along - 44 flops a draw
 

If you're going to call 2 bets the first time, I think you should easily be calling 2 bets the second time. So I do that. MP2 raised PF, so I have him on an OP. No way he has a straight. If MP1 has a straight, good for him, but I think his range has to include 6x, 65s, sets, and weaker overpairs. I still figure we have ~6 outs, some maybe to a chop and odds to call.

Also, I'd at least entertain the idea of donking the flop. If MP2 has overcards, he may not bet again and the pot is big enough that you can get several peels and get value now for your straight draw. Plus with you having two of the 4s, it's less likely people are on the same draw.

Re: My first play along - 44 flops a draw
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm thinkin we have 10 maybe 11.5 outs here. We are callin this one. (In before the play along police.)

[/ QUOTE ]

How are you getting all these outs? MP2 screams QQ-AA, he is not a problem if we hit. But MP1 screams either a flopped set which kills our set outs, or a Axh flush draw, which kills our 2 of our str8 outs. We have 6 clean str8 outs, but some discount for when we hit on the turn and someone fills up or flushes the river, call it 5 outs. Maybe discount the other 2 str8 outs to .5-1, and discount the two 4 outs to 1 for the times MP1 has a set, seems like we have about 7 outs. Still a call though.

Re: My first play along - 44 flops a draw
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(In before the play along police.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not certain but I think the point of the play along is to discuss each decision before you show us what you've done, so your first post is actually 3 posts in one; pre-flop, flop check, flop call.

[/ QUOTE ]

from Wook's rules

[ QUOTE ]
2. The hand should feature at a bare minimum TWO very marginal situations that will generate good discussion. If there are 3 or 4, all the better. If you have a great hand to post with just one decision that will generate good discussion, a regular hand post will work best for it. Otherwise, discussion of the important street will get buried by "raise preflop."
3. Speaking of which, if preflop play is obvious, there's no shame in starting at the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

The question is if preflop is obvious - I think so, I also think flop check is standard.

I think hero should call both times.

Re: My first play along - 44 flops a draw
 

call preflop and call flop both times.

i predict that the turn decision is similarly facile, but i'm willing to be surprised.

Re: My first play along - 44 flops a draw
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm thinkin we have 10 maybe 11.5 outs here. We are callin this one. (In before the play along police.)

[/ QUOTE ]

10 or 11 outs? Our 2 "4" outs are dirty as can be. I guess you could say we have a back door full house draw. Boy I hope we don't get to the point where it becomes common to say, "I had a BDFHD for 1 out."

So lets say we give ourselves 6 outs for the OESD since a 2 or 6 doesn't give us the nuts and somebody else could have already flopped a set and have the afore mentioned BDFHD (Oh crap, it's already happening) on us.

So we're looking at about 6 + 1(BDFHD) discounted outs. I'm never giving us the BDFD outs here.

Wait, what's this? We also have a BDSFD (back door straight flush draw) for another 1/4 outs. 7 1/4 outs. My bad.

At any rate, yes I'm calling in both spots on the flop and I hate anything on the turn except a non heart 2 or 7.

Note: I didn't do any actual math to get the exact value of a BDFHD or BDSFD. I'm just lightly estimated. One of you more nitty folks can waste your time trying to find that out.

Toodles.

Feeling very sarcasilastic,
Befolder

Re: My first play along - 44 flops a draw
 

Tyler was right that Turn action is boring, so I can really just finish the hand with one more set of actions.



PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $0.02.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="red">MP2 raises</font>, MP3 (poster) calls, 2 folds</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (14 SB) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (7 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="red">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="red">MP2 raises</font>, MP3 calls, SB folds, Hero calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 3-bets</font>, MP2 caps</font>, MP3 calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (17 BB) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (5 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="red">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls. (Totally boring and standard)

River: (21 BB) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (4 players)</font>
Hero checks (in hind sight, I think leading here would have been better), UTG+1 checks, <font color="red">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="red">MP2 raises</font>, Hero???????????

Re: My first play along - 44 flops a draw
 

mp2's play makes no sense. did he really go that crazy on the flop with 77 (or 22)? maybe he spiked a set of Ks and decided to slowplay or wait and make sure the flush didn't come in? it's all very strange.

mp1's play looks like a set, a strongly played two-pair, or an unlikely flopped straight (limping with 74s there is awfully loose).

would utg+1 really check a straight here? i guess he might if he stuck around with a 2 or if he's pretty awful. he is somewhat more likely to have a flush draw, though.

anyway, there is so much uncertainty in this hand and the pot is so huge (and i believe that this hand actually took place at a limit lower than .25/.5) that i think i'm stuck calling the river.

Re: My first play along - 44 flops a draw
 

I don't see a straight as likely in any of the action and obviously no flush. Set over set is very worrisome though but IMO we can't fold so it's call and then maybe call 2 more or raise but I don't think a raise is real prudent. I guess I think the cheapest way to showdown is the most prudent here. Call and call two more if it goes that way. We have to be good more than 1 in 20 here. Don't we?

Re: My first play along - 44 flops a draw
 

I agree with Tyler, this hand looks really weird when I go back and see how each played it.

I could see MP1 having a better set than us, playing it fast on the flop (except for not 3 betting on the flop). Basically, I think we're outsetted (yeah, I saided it) in some form, but again it's so weird, I think I'm stuck calling and either seeing something really weird like 47s or some other crazy shiznit.

Edit: I really want to fold this thinking that MP2s raise is KK who nailed on the turn, but he was too dumb to jack it up there.

Re: My first play along - 44 flops a draw
 

MP1 did 3 bet the flop, and bet the turn into the flop capper. His line definitely says flopped set, we have to hope it's 3's, not 5's or 6's, so vs. him we are good 1 in 3 here so have to call. MP2 also looks like he hit a set on the turn and waited for safe (non heart) river to raise, or was afraid of chasing people out or shania knows what he was thinking. We need the parlay of 3's for MP1 and a really weirdly played non KK hand for MP2 (as opposed to the just weirdly played KK). Looks like we are stuck calling but don't really like it.

Re: My first play along - 44 flops a draw
 

[ QUOTE ]
MP1 did 3 bet the flop, and bet the turn into the flop capper. His line definitely says flopped set, we have to hope it's 3's, not 5's or 6's, so vs. him we are good 1 in 3 here so have to call. MP2 also looks like he hit a set on the turn and waited for safe (non heart) river to raise, or was afraid of chasing people out or shania knows what he was thinking. We need the parlay of 3's for MP1 and a really weirdly played non KK hand for MP2 (as opposed to the just weirdly played KK). Looks like we are stuck calling but don't really like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about TP + a flush draw - like KJ [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] from MP1

Re: My first play along - 44 flops a draw
 

IBTB!

Re: My first play along - 44 flops a draw
 

I don't see why betting the flop would be bad. You have decent equity in a peelish flop and some people will be smart enough not to cbet into like 7 people.

Re: My first play along - 44 flops a draw
 

in before boz comes crashing out like some boozed up angry stepdad...