I don\'t even know, just explain this to me?
 

Villain is augie00, no idea if it's 2+2 augie or not, but he seems decent, fairly aggressive, solid. He has seen me playing pretty aggressive earlier but so far at this final table I haven't done much, even have been open folding my button and cutoff so far in these first couple orbits. My aggressive play earlier consisted of opening pretty often and 3betting once maybe twice, never showed down a hand in a big pot really except when I had a respectable hand. I have 3bet villain once earlier when I had position on him, and he folded. Anyway, just wondering about a few things. Does his play have any merit? Does mine? What are some ranges (raising, reraising, calling, etc.) for each of us that would make our plays correct/bad?


i tried 4 converters with 0 success


Full Tilt Poker Game #2654252703: $18,000 Guarantee (19769877), Table 33 - 1200/2400 Ante 300 - No Limit Hold'em - 3:44:33 ET - 2007/06/13
Seat 1: augie00 (133,227)
Seat 2: AJ_Rider (77,352)
Seat 3: daniel5r (71,060)
Seat 4: profitsforlife (58,164)
Seat 5: Uncle Festus (65,874)
Seat 6: cubs98 (63,248), is sitting out
Seat 7: LFitz (13,704)
Seat 8: Maxidoo (28,670)
Seat 9: DLizzle (88,701)
augie00 antes 300
AJ_Rider antes 300
daniel5r antes 300
profitsforlife antes 300
Uncle Festus antes 300
cubs98 antes 300
LFitz antes 300
Maxidoo antes 300
DLizzle antes 300
AJ_Rider posts the small blind of 1,200
daniel5r posts the big blind of 2,400
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to DLizzle [7h Jh]
profitsforlife folds
Uncle Festus folds
cubs98 folds
LFitz folds
Maxidoo folds
DLizzle raises to 6,200
augie00 has 15 seconds left to act
augie00 raises to 29,200
AJ_Rider folds
daniel5r folds
DLizzle has 15 seconds left to act
DLizzle raises to 88,401, and is all in
augie00 has 15 seconds left to act
augie00 has requested TIME
augie00 calls 59,201
DLizzle shows [7h Jh]
augie00 shows [4c 4s]

Re: I don\'t even know, just explain this to me?
 

I like your play if you think it'll make him lay down a big chunk of his re-raising range. Generally, I think calling all-ins with low pockets is an awful play unless the odds are irresistable. He must include quite many Ax and face combos in your 4-betting range to make up for the odds. Don't think I'm able to assign any player that range.

Re: I don\'t even know, just explain this to me?
 

If someone wants to call he will always find a reason to. His whole play looks horrible, why didnt he raise to 18K?

Re: I don\'t even know, just explain this to me?
 

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t1200/t2400
(Ante: t300)
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t58164
UTG+1: t65874
MP1: t63248
MP2: t13704
MP3: t28670
Hero: t88701
Button: t133227
SB: t77352
BB: t71060

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is CO with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
5 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to t6200</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to t29200</font>, 2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises all-in t88401</font>, Button calls t59201 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t123901)</font>.

Re: I don\'t even know, just explain this to me?
 

Nice raise on the Cut off but once he comes back over it's an easy fold for me. Granted he knows your range will be wider given the postion but why tangle with the chip leader at this point?

He's raising a quarter of his stack back at you which would suggest he's got a hand, and looking to get you invloved. So it suggests a pair as it's already made.

Re: I don\'t even know, just explain this to me?
 

Nah, there is something fishy about this re-raise its just to big and screams I am making a move. If there is ever a right spot for resteal I think its just this one.
Hero made a nice play which eventually went a bit wrong.

Re: I don\'t even know, just explain this to me?
 

I like the play, this move def seems like a re steal from villain and I think it is a brilliant shove. If im villain there is no way on god's green earth im gonna call this with 44. Still id normally just fold my J7 like a girl here.

Re: I don\'t even know, just explain this to me?
 

I personally would pick a better place to make a stand than with J7 suited out of position against the chip leader.

Re: I don\'t even know, just explain this to me?
 

You do realise position is irrelevant once ur all in right??

Re: I don\'t even know, just explain this to me?
 

Only when he pushes his stack straight away. How did they know they were going to end up all-in before the betting started though? When the betting starts they are betting in position.

But I suppose you're thinking of your own play and you're prob willing to open with J7s and be prepared to call off all your chips with it.

Re: I don\'t even know, just explain this to me?
 

Personally, I only like re-re-steals against someone who is a shorter stack than me, is not pot committed and I have a solid image.

The other problem is he has 30,000 of his children out there and is getting better than 2:1 calling odds and will not be broke in case he loses. He also might suspect you would have raised more with a hand of 66-JJ so he might figure most of your range is two higher cards than 4 with a slight chance of a premium pair.

Basically, both of you were playing a game of chicken and now somebody is going to get run over.

Re: I don\'t even know, just explain this to me?
 

Lol no newbie fishy thats not what im saying at all. Maybe you can only fathom abc poker but when someone comes in for a re raise that is 5 times ur original raise alarm bells shud b ringing. There's no way hes doing this with a hand he wants u to stick round with. If I have AA or KK and someone in the CO raises to 6k ill make it between 14 and 20k to entice them into calling. Yes ur right about position but I thought u were being silly and implying that position matters in an all in showdown pre flop. I think this shove is on the verge of brilliance personally and I still cant figure out how villain found the balls to call with 44. OP did you win this pot? Villain deserves to fry for that loose loose call.

Re: I don\'t even know, just explain this to me?
 

You think this shove is one the verge of brilliance?

I think that sums it up.

Re: I don\'t even know, just explain this to me?
 

OP,

I don't know what the buy-in is for the FTP 18K gtd. Please inform.

That being said, I have only made the play you did here a few times ever. Everytime the person behind me had been re-stealing a lot. If this villain has not been re-stealing a lot, you should just fold to his re-raise. If he has, your shove has merit. I don't know if it is good because I wasn't there are moves like this are very very read dependent. But it definitally has merit.

Again, for this move to be good, villain has had to have shown you that he will re-steal with a wide range. I think you are deep enough to have FE if his range is wide enough.

Surprised to see that he called with 44. He must of "known" you didn't have a pair. NH.

Sherman

edit: spelling.

Re: I don\'t even know, just explain this to me?
 

this is a pretty awful shove, he's getting great odds since he reraised so large. in fact, he needs 32% equity to have a profitable call. what a coincidence!

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

410,952,960 games 0.125 secs 3,287,623,680 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 67.278% 67.04% 00.24% 275510928 971460.00 { JJ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 32.722% 32.49% 00.24% 133499112 971460.00 { 44 }


---

Re: I don\'t even know, just explain this to me?
 

[ QUOTE ]
this is a pretty awful shove, he's getting great odds since he reraised so large. in fact, he needs 32% equity to have a profitable call. what a coincidence!

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

410,952,960 games 0.125 secs 3,287,623,680 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 67.278% 67.04% 00.24% 275510928 971460.00 { JJ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 32.722% 32.49% 00.24% 133499112 971460.00 { 44 }


---

[/ QUOTE ]

Math always wins.

Re: I don\'t even know, just explain this to me?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t1200/t2400
(Ante: t300)
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t58164
UTG+1: t65874
MP1: t63248
MP2: t13704
MP3: t28670
Hero: t88701
Button: t133227
SB: t77352
BB: t71060

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is CO with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
5 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to t6200</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to t29200</font>, 2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises all-in t88401</font>, Button calls t59201 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t123901)</font>.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you feel he is raising you light, you have other options. If you call the raise, you get to act first on the flop. You could pull a stop and go like play (ie push any flop) that Raymer advocates from the blinds with a shorter stack.

His bet of 29,000 is almost exactly 1/3rd of your stack. When someone raises 1/3rd of your stack preflop, they are guaranteeing themselves 2:1 pot odds if you push all in prelop. You have little to no fold equity preflop.

Re: I don\'t even know, just explain this to me?
 

Very interesting counter to villian's obvious plan of setting himself up to call a shove PF. And When I say "obvious" it was only because NHFunkii pointed it out, lol.

Re: I don\'t even know, just explain this to me?
 

bad time to resteal because villians raise is too big to ever fold he is getting way to good a price to fold.

Re: I don\'t even know, just explain this to me?
 

[ QUOTE ]
this is a pretty awful shove, he's getting great odds since he reraised so large. in fact, he needs 32% equity to have a profitable call. what a coincidence!

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

410,952,960 games 0.125 secs 3,287,623,680 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 67.278% 67.04% 00.24% 275510928 971460.00 { JJ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 32.722% 32.49% 00.24% 133499112 971460.00 { 44 }


---

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what is blowing my mind, seems like in tournaments you can justify almost any call. Yes look at the math but I can't help but think, wtf is he doing calling a 4bet shove with 44 for a pot that will most likely determine the winner of the tournament. Donkey thinking on my part maybe? Anyway, more thoughts on this: he obviously raised this amount to justify calling a shove, and to send me the message that he is calling so I shouldn't push. So he's sending me this message then calling anyway, I dunno just seems like a decent spot to push because he's going to make the mistake of folding often imo, it was very obvious to me he didn't have a hand. Also, I think a lot of people fold here, even though the math says call, which is why I don't think my push is bad. If our opponents play perfectly then I agree my push is terrible, but they don't. Not entirely sure on my logic on this whole thing, comments?

Couple more points:

-I lost the hand
-the buy in was $75

Re: I don\'t even know, just explain this to me?
 

comments:
a lot of people call too much in tournaments, and they are wrong. yes, donkey thinking on your part. pot odds are real.
basically, I don't think people fold that much here. they're just getting too good odds. if you had 20k more chips, I like the shove a lot more.