50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

Ok, I'd like to take this hand street by street because I was really uncertain about all of my decisions and I never felt like I had a solid plan. The is mainly because UTG+1 was very loose (45/20) and bad at poker, so I knew going in it was going to be difficult to figure out where I was in the hand.

First Decision- PF:

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
7 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $98.20
UTG+1: $56.70
MP1: $9
CO: $30.90
Button: $23.65
Hero: $52.45
BB: $10

Pre-flop: (7 players) Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises to $2</font>, 2 folds, Button calls, Hero ????

My thoughts here- I figured that even with villain raising a limper I am still pretty far ahead of his range. With him being so loose, there's a good argument for raising to isolate rather than calling and inviting a big multiway pot. With QQ I'd certainly raise to isolate, and with TT I'd call and play for set value. JJ seems kind of borderline to me. I'm also OOP, so building a big pot with a villain who will be hard to read might not be my best course of action. OTOH, playing for set value against a villain who might not have much seems like I might be de-valuing my hand. Finally, I hate getting 4bet here. Thoughts?

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

3 betting is definetely better here, OOP, with a caller in between, and against this type of villain. Also its 7 handed, this is an auto 3bet imo.

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

Make it 8$.

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

[ QUOTE ]
Make it 8$.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, against loose players JJ is huge, and since they are loose I would want to 3-bet 4-5x his bet here....

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

I agree that with JJ you could go either way (calling/raising) because you will be OOP for the rest of the hand. Here I think the decision comes down to any reads on how aggressive/passive he is after the flop. Any reads?

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here I think the decision comes down to any reads on how aggressive/passive he is after the flop. Any reads?

[/ QUOTE ]Villain is not hyper aggressive, but he will make loose calls. Like most players, he'll bet if he feels he has the advantage and fold if he thinks he's beat. The difference between him and better players is that he is not good at assessing his position in the hand (which, of course, makes assessing MY position in the hand difficult as well).

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

OK, so I elected to call. I think I agree that a raise probably would have been better, but at the time I felt like it was marginal either way. If he had not been raising over a limper I probably would have raised, but I felt like the fact that he was raising over a player already in the pot MIGHT narrow his range slightly upward, and that pushed me to just call and make the hand less volatile.


Flop decision:

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
7 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $98.20
UTG+1: $56.70
MP1: $9
CO: $30.90
Button: $23.65
Hero: $52.45
BB: $10

Pre-flop: (7 players) Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises to $2</font>, 2 folds, Button calls, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($8.5, 4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets $5.5</font>, Button folds, Hero ????


Ok, so I checked because we are 4 to this flop, and while I'm still ahead of UTG+1 range, I have no idea about the other two. Since I'm 90% certain that UTG+1 will bet if I check, I figure I'll get another crack at betting this round, but after seeing what UTG and the button do. If anyone disagrees with this check, I'm interested.

Anyway, so now that I've checked, the button has folded, and UTG doesn't look particularly strong, what's the play? I'm still well ahead of UTG+1's range, but he could easily have overs here. Do I want to raise and charge him, or call and keep the pot small?

Note: I do not have a good read on whether he'll fire a second barrel with overs here on the turn.

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

Since you were certain he would bet I like the check. I'd now raise it to $15.

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

I'd raise the flop. I'd also raise pre-flop because it makes decisions on the flop alot easier.

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

Well I agree with reraise PF here, but since you didn't definately must repop on flop. And 15ish looks good to me.

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

OK, so we all seem to agree with $15 here.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
7 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $98.20
UTG+1: $56.70
MP1: $9
CO: $30.90
Button: $23.65
Hero: $52.45
BB: $10

Pre-flop: (7 players) Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises to $2</font>, 2 folds, Button calls, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($8.5, 4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets $5.5</font>, Button folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $15</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($38.5, 2 players) Hero ???

Now what? I am totally lost in this hand.

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

Unfortunately w/o reraising pf this makes it tougher. I think I'm ahead of most of his range. Any 2 hearts, 22-AA, 54s. I don't think he his holding AA,KK,QQ, unless a total donk and does not want to protect his holdings against a draw heavy board, thus the flat call leads me to believe, drawing hand,22-1010 is in his holdings.
With 6th best hand in the range I give him credit for. I push and if I'm behind I pay it off and move on. I think I'm ahead more then 70% of the time so.....

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

[ QUOTE ]
OK, so we all seem to agree with $15 here.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
7 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $98.20
UTG+1: $56.70
MP1: $9
CO: $30.90
Button: $23.65
Hero: $52.45
BB: $10

Pre-flop: (7 players) Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises to $2</font>, 2 folds, Button calls, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($8.5, 4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets $5.5</font>, Button folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $15</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($38.5, 2 players) Hero ???

Now what? I am totally lost in this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Based on your read that he will make loose calls, bet 2/3 of the pot on the turn.

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OK, so we all seem to agree with $15 here.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
7 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $98.20
UTG+1: $56.70
MP1: $9
CO: $30.90
Button: $23.65
Hero: $52.45
BB: $10

Pre-flop: (7 players) Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises to $2</font>, 2 folds, Button calls, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($8.5, 4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets $5.5</font>, Button folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $15</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($38.5, 2 players) Hero ???

Now what? I am totally lost in this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Based on your read that he will make loose calls, bet 2/3 of the pot on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

2/3pot basically commits you, so why not just push? I mean you gonna call if he reraises anyways so....

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think he his holding AA,KK,QQ, unless a total donk and does not want to protect his holdings against a draw heavy board

[/ QUOTE ]Do you expect most players to push QQ+ here against a c/r?

I don't think flat calling with one of those hands is a donkish move because what I'm doing looks an awful lot like a set. Of course, given that he is not a great player it's hard to really know what he thinks I have, but I don't think we can rule out an overpair.

The only hands I'm ahead of going into the turn are 77, 88, and a flush draw. I really don't think he calls my c/r with 44 or 55, and I think calling with 77 or 88 is pretty bad (but he's a bad players so these hands are not out of the question).

Here's a range for him- what do you guys think?


equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 40.428% 39.47% 00.96% 903 22.00 { JcJs }
Hand 1: 59.572% 58.61% 00.96% 1341 22.00 { 66+, 33-22, AhKh, AhQh, KhQh }

Edited to include the turn card

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

[ QUOTE ]
Based on your read that he will make loose calls, bet 2/3 of the pot on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]I think if I'm betting I'm just pushing.

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

I think with bad players, I tend to play big pots. I am ahead more times then not. I think you are ahead more then 2 out of 3 times here, so I push all day, if not oh well.

One question, is this a guy you see frequently? If so, I think the info you would gain from this hand would have some value, I dont mind losing a hand like this is it give me more info on someone's play.

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by Jeff76

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

I think it's definately possible.

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Based on your read that he will make loose calls, bet 2/3 of the pot on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]I think if I'm betting I'm just pushing.

[/ QUOTE ]
The more you bet the more you are going to make worse hands fold. However, I do see your stack sizes now, so I'd bet more like 1/2 the pot. If I push I'm just making it more likely he will play correctly with a worse hand.

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's definately possible.

[/ QUOTE ]Sorry, I deleted my post because I messed up poker stove (it wasn't including the board for some reason). If you look now I only have 40% equity against that range.

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think with bad players, I tend to play big pots. I am ahead more times then not. I think you are ahead more then 2 out of 3 times here, so I push all day, if not oh well.

One question, is this a guy you see frequently? If so, I think the info you would gain from this hand would have some value, I dont mind losing a hand like this is it give me more info on someone's play.

[/ QUOTE ]
Your thinking here is all wrong. Of course you are ahead more often than not here, but how often are you ahead if he calls your push? "Don't take away their rope"

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think you are ahead more then 2 out of 3 times here, so I push all day, if not oh well.

[/ QUOTE ]Can we put together a reasonable hand range of villain where we have 66% equity?

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

[ QUOTE ]
However, I do see your stack sizes now, so I'd bet more like 1/2 the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]Are you going to call a push if you do this? (I'm not saying I disagree with your logic- I just don't like any option here).

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think with bad players, I tend to play big pots. I am ahead more times then not. I think you are ahead more then 2 out of 3 times here, so I push all day, if not oh well.

One question, is this a guy you see frequently? If so, I think the info you would gain from this hand would have some value, I dont mind losing a hand like this is it give me more info on someone's play.

[/ QUOTE ]
Your thinking here is all wrong. Of course you are ahead more often than not here, but how often are you ahead if he calls your push? "Don't take away their rope"

[/ QUOTE ]

By OP flat calling on flop (don't like it but hand is well disguised) I think a push will get a call most times. Bad players love to stack off IMO. And well, if not, it's a decent pot anyways with a so-so hand. But I definately see where your coming from, probably something I need to work on at times, but then again I would have played the hand diff from the get go, and I rarely find myself in these positions.

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Don't take away their rope"

[/ QUOTE ]So what about check/calling? That seems the best way to play against the weakest part of his range. Or are we too worried about a flush draw?

The thing I don't like about leading here is that I think it works out about the same as a push: he only calls with better hands.

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

Jeff I'm interested in this hand. Can you PM results? I have to hit the sack. LOL

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

[ QUOTE ]
Of course you are ahead more often than not here

[/ QUOTE ]Hand range?

(This is where I have difficulty playing against poor players who call too much- I have trouble putting him on a hand).

Do you think that QQ+ are out of his range?

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

I'd rule out QQ+ because i think he would of 3bet the flop.

If it was checked to him on the turn do you think he would bet again with 55, or 77-99 and AJh+?

Board: 3c 2h 6h Tc
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 66.839% 66.84% 00.00% 1294 0.00 { JcJs }
Hand 1: 33.161% 33.16% 00.00% 642 0.00{ TT-22, AhKh, AhQh }

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd rule out QQ+ because i think he would of 3bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]It has been my experience that a flop c/r against most players at 50NL freezes overpairs. Not necessarily that players will fold them, but they will slow down their aggression. Is my impression wrong?

If it is, what kind of player slows down with overpairs to a c/r, and what kind continues to push them? I've definitely experienced players who switch to a "get to a cheap showdown" mode once their overpair is check/raised.

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think with bad players, I tend to play big pots. I am ahead more times then not. I think you are ahead more then 2 out of 3 times here, so I push all day, if not oh well.

One question, is this a guy you see frequently? If so, I think the info you would gain from this hand would have some value, I dont mind losing a hand like this is it give me more info on someone's play.

[/ QUOTE ]
Your thinking here is all wrong. Of course you are ahead more often than not here, but how often are you ahead if he calls your push? "Don't take away their rope"

[/ QUOTE ]

By OP flat calling on flop (don't like it but hand is well disguised) I think a push will get a call most times. Bad players love to stack off IMO. And well, if not, it's a decent pot anyways with a so-so hand. But I definately see where your coming from, probably something I need to work on at times, but then again I would have played the hand diff from the get go, and I rarely find myself in these positions.

[/ QUOTE ]
OP raised the flop.

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Don't take away their rope"

[/ QUOTE ]So what about check/calling? That seems the best way to play against the weakest part of his range. Or are we too worried about a flush draw?

The thing I don't like about leading here is that I think it works out about the same as a push: he only calls with better hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
I guess in this hand I'm putting my faith in the fact that he is the bad player you say he is. From your read I assumed that he would call more hands than he would bet with but I wasn't at the table with him. My assumption was that he wouldn't bet those weaker hands in his range but would call with them (like any pocket pair).

If you now think he will only call with a better hand, and still think he will only bet his strong hands then c/f to any reasonable bet is best.

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Of course you are ahead more often than not here

[/ QUOTE ]Hand range?

(This is where I have difficulty playing against poor players who call too much- I have trouble putting him on a hand).

Do you think that QQ+ are out of his range?

[/ QUOTE ]
No I don't think QQ+ is out of his range. I think his range is any PP, any two hearts and even some hands like AQ, AT, hoping you raised with a flush draw.

However, we are only a coin flip at this point if we assume a range of:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 48.784% 48.08% 00.70% 1502 22.00 { QQ+, JdJh, TT-22, AhKh, AhQh, AhJh, AhTh, KhQh, KhJh, KhTh, QhJh, QhTh, JhTh }
Hand 1: 51.216% 50.51% 00.70% 1578 22.00 { JcJs }

but I still think there is some chance he could have a couple of overs at this point.

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you now think he will only call with a better hand, and still think he will only bet his strong hands then c/f to any reasonable bet is best.

[/ QUOTE ]My only problem is that I don't know if what he considers "strong" beats me.

Arg, so I checked not sure what I was going to do if he bet, but thankfully he checked behind. River was the A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], which I again checked, planning to call this time (because while the flush got there, most of the hands he'd get there with contain the A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], which we know he doesn't have).

After seeing the results I was kind of conflicted, wondering if I could have gotten more value. I hate how lost I felt on the turn. However, I also tell myself that winning a pot of 77 big blinds with just an overpair ain't bad.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
7 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $98.20
UTG+1: $56.70
MP1: $9
CO: $30.90
Button: $23.65
Hero: $52.45
BB: $10

Pre-flop: (7 players) Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises to $2</font>, 2 folds, Button calls, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($8.5, 4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets $5.5</font>, Button folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $15</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($38.5, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks.

River: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($38.5, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks.

Results:
Final pot: $38.5
Hero showed Js Jc
UTG+1 mucks 7c 7s


I'm still not sure I like how I played this hand. I also don't know how much of a difference raising pre would have made. He would have def. called with his pair and I'd have led out on the flop, which he also would have called. On the turn I'd still be a little lost, but I'd probably be more certain that he didn't have KK+ since I would have expected him to re-pop pre. He'd also have less information about my hand given that I wouldn't have c/r him so if I checked the turn he probably would have bet. It's hard to say which line would have gotten more money in the pot, but raising pre probably would have made the hand easier to play.

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

I read this hand over last night and this morning. It seems like on one hand (at the first of the hand) this guy was a fish and then as the hand progressed you started second guessing yourself and now trying to "put him on a hand", which you can't do with a player like this.

Maybe this is why you were feeling lost all of a sudden?

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

I think you maybe missed out on one value bet on the turn, but hey not a bad pot for JJ, just be glad he donked as much money as he did. As you rightly say, bad players are very hard to read.

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

[ QUOTE ]
It seems like on one hand (at the first of the hand) this guy was a fish and then as the hand progressed you started second guessing yourself and now trying to "put him on a hand", which you can't do with a player like this.

Maybe this is why you were feeling lost all of a sudden?

[/ QUOTE ]No question this is the reason I was feeling lost. Also, I never doubted that this guy was a fish, but fish can get good hands too. That's the problem I had- I still have to assign ranges for him, but it's a lot harder to do.

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think you maybe missed out on one value bet on the turn

[/ QUOTE ]No question I missed value as the hand played out, but I'm not so sure against possible hands he could play this way. In other words, if he plays QQ-AA exactly the same way as he plays 77-99, then betting the turn is break even at best. With the T on board, though, he definitely calls with QQ+ but might fold 77-99. Of course there are other hands in his range- sets and flush draws. So who knows really?

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

I am taking a look at this since Jeff asked me to join in.

I agree with a lot of the posters in here for the most part so I will just add what I can and highlight, imo, the key points.

I think everyone is are giving him a little too much credit on the turn. This guy will do this with Axh, imo. I think he would hang in there with with PP's on the flop, including 55/44. Also, I think you need to discount AA-QQ, although I think they could play this way(maybe only put one of them in his range in Poker Stove as a way of discounting). He also could have some suited connectors in there that work ok with this flop.

On the turn, I think the pot is big enough that you should feel ok betting the turn. Combine that with the fact that you don't want to give a free card to draws and that he will call with some worse hands and I think betting becomes more clear.

I think that pushing probably gets called just as much as a smaller bet, so I think that is fine as well.

Re: 50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think with bad players, I tend to play big pots. I am ahead more times then not. I think you are ahead more then 2 out of 3 times here, so I push all day, if not oh well.

One question, is this a guy you see frequently? If so, I think the info you would gain from this hand would have some value, I dont mind losing a hand like this is it give me more info on someone's play.

[/ QUOTE ]
Your thinking here is all wrong. Of course you are ahead more often than not here, but how often are you ahead if he calls your push? "Don't take away their rope"

[/ QUOTE ]

Thought about this, now if you bet $20 into a 38$ pot, if the villian is holding overs suited to flush draw are you not giving heavy implied, even with only 1 card to come.

Usually bad players will not put hero on a specific hand, but if he calculated that way he has the outs.