Is chasing higher ranked hands ever justified?
 

Here was the situation that prompted the thought:
$3/6 Limit Hold'em at B&M casino (Canterbury)

Me - button (A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img])

I of course raise and the SB and middle player both call.
Flop comes A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and two random cards for a rainbow flop.

The two other players check to me. With my trip Aces, I bet and the two players again call.

Turn card is Jack [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Both players check to me and I figure something is up here and they are chasing and all I can do is bet my $6. They both call me again.

River card is another diamond. First player checks, second one bets, I call, first player raises, second player reraises, and I fold because it's obvious that one of them has made the flush.

Question: is it just the nature of limit hold'em that this will happen where my hand is leading throughout and it is impossible to chase anyone else out of the pot by betting since it is essentially only one small bets that they are able to manage by simply check/calling?

2) Doesn't limit hold'em encourage this kind of chasing - and by encourage, i.e., is more profitable, because your opponent can't really bet in a way that messes up the odds for the other players? For this reason, shouldn't suited and/or connected cards be valued more highly in limit hold'em - perhaps even more so than pocket pairs?

If this issue has already been discussed and people are sick of it, sorry - and could you just redirect me to that earlier thread discussing this.

Thanks from a newbie. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Is chasing higher ranked hands ever justified?
 

The one thing about limit is that it is cheap (relatively speaking) to chase flush/straight draws. The good news is that you can make money from people chasing those draws, especially people who will chase backdoor flush/straight draws and gutshots.

Re: Is chasing higher ranked hands ever justified?
 

Although you've been outdrawn here this will make money over time - Just don't let this one hand slow you down next time this situation props up again. You played a good line here and i'd stick to it.

Re: Is chasing higher ranked hands ever justified?
 

Welcome.

You played it prefectly and got sucked out on. In a way you want this kind of bad chasing against you in LHE. Like the other said, don't let this one result change the way you would play this hand. EVER! You have to get used to these beats cause they come along in limit hold em games. But also, get used to winning a big pot more often than not with this hand with this board.

Good luck

Re: Is chasing higher ranked hands ever justified?
 

NL and Limit hand values are very similar. So no, big drawing hands can't be prefered over pocket aces... if I had to pick any one hand to get over and over again it would be AA, not 10J suited or something. Drawing hands can be valuable though... very much so.

Example: The other day playing my local 3/6 game... I had 6d8d on the button, this table happened to be very passive and the gentlemen on the blinds were total donks.

4 people in front of me and I'm sure the 2 behind are just calling, so I call this moderate 1 gapped SC. The flop was 7c 9d Qd. Huge draw for me... SB bets... EVERYONE calls so of course I'm going to call right? Wrong... I RAISE for vaule... paying an extra 3 bucks now to make a whole lot more when I hit... this was done KNOWING that I

1. Would not get raised, and
2. Would get called by everyone

...I hit the flush on the turn, SB bet, I raised, he and the BB called. River was a blank, he bet again, I raised again and he and the BB called and I dragged a massive pot.

Moral, with that kind of potential leading into the turn, my hand had more equity than pocket pairs becuase all of my straight and flush outs were live.


And just to reinforce what everyone else said, do not play that hand differently from now on because "you'll just get sucked out again." You must keep getting your money in there because if you begin just checking hands down and not forcing people to mistakenly chase draws according to given odds, they aren't paying you any of the money that you should be making.

Re: Is chasing higher ranked hands ever justified?
 

Yea, don't ever get passive with big pairs. I see this alot when guys just limo in with them and end up winning the pot. They just don't have a clue that the pot that they just won should have been a lot bigger than it was.

PS. Don't ever coach these players either ever.

Re: Is chasing higher ranked hands ever justified?
 

In the interests of full disclosure, I should admit that I am a bit of a chaser myself - and like your story - it seems that (more often than not) when I'm chasing and hit it, it's always a huge pot versus when I have pocket pairs.

I understand the concepts of pot odds and hand rankings based on mathematics, but if there is really no defense in limit games against chasing - what can you do other than bet once and you will simply be called down until the chaser either makes their hand or doesn't and gives up - then why isn't chasing the flushes/straights considered more of a viable strategy? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Is chasing higher ranked hands ever justified?
 

[ QUOTE ]
In the interests of full disclosure, I should admit that I am a bit of a chaser myself - and like your story - it seems that (more often than not) when I'm chasing and hit it, it's always a huge pot versus when I have pocket pairs.

I understand the concepts of pot odds and hand rankings based on mathematics, but if there is really no defense in limit games against chasing - what can you do other than bet once and you will simply be called down until the chaser either makes their hand or doesn't and gives up - then why isn't chasing the flushes/straights considered more of a viable strategy? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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SSHE explains all of this in-depth, I'd recommend reading it.

In a nutshell, try to face the field with bets that make it mathematically incorrect for those chasing to call. For example, if preflop raiser is to your left then lead the flop on a vulernable leading hand hoping the raiser will face the field with 2 bets. Or if preflop raiser is to your right then go for the checkraise. Or perhaps wait for a safer turn card before attempting this sorta stuff (where there are a zillion turn cards that could kill your hand). Some of those chasing will have correct odds to continue (you almost always do chasing an open ended straight draw or flush draw); you just gotta make them pay as much as possible so when they miss you win as much as you can. And some will still incorrectly chase their longshots and suck out on you from time to time, but you still win in the long run when they do this cuz eventually (long long term eventually) the numbers will approach their expected value and they'll be making the long term losing play while you'll be making the long term winning play.

I guess the only question I have regarding this strategy is whether I will ever play enough poker hands over my life time to have all the numbers approach their expected values. In other words, if I played perfectly over an infinite amount of time I'd come out a winner (and that's a big IF I played perfectly, cuz I don't [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]); but over a mere life time I think a lot of it is simply going to be left up to luck.

G0.5BB/hourcluelessnoobG

Re: Is chasing higher ranked hands ever justified?
 

The answer your looking for is that there are two kinds of chasing... chasing when you have pot odds, and chasing when you don't. So mathematically it's correct to chase an open ended straight when you're getting 5-1 or better but not when you're only getting 4-1. You may drag big pots by hitting a chase you shouldn't have been in the search for, and you feel good at the time, but statistically you will lose money over a long period of time by wasting those bets without sufficient odds.

Re: Is chasing higher ranked hands ever justified?
 

Thanks for the recommendation - I've been reading the Theory of Poker and once I'm done with that I will be on to SSHE.

Re: Is chasing higher ranked hands ever justified?
 

you want to punish your opponents for incorrectly chasing when the odds dictate that they would be better off folding.
Sometimes they will win. But over time they are paying you off more when your hand holds up then they will be making for the times when they chase.

You say that you understand the concept of pot-odds but I think your understanding still needs work.
SSHE as was recommended would be a good place to start for some of this stuff.

Re: Is chasing higher ranked hands ever justified?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I understand the concepts of pot odds and hand rankings based on mathematics, but if there is really no defense in limit games against chasing - what can you do other than bet once and you will simply be called down until the chaser either makes their hand or doesn't and gives up - then why isn't chasing the flushes/straights considered more of a viable strategy?

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But there is a defense - playing the hand like you did!

Look at it this way: If your opponents could only beat you by drawing to the BD flush that they hit, then you're going to win this hand 99% of the time and only lose 1% of the time...and you'll make a ton of money.

You got hung up on the 1% of the time they win, instead of focusing on the 99% they lose. And keep in mind that poker is only a popular game becuase of these suckouts. If poor play correlated immediately to poor results, like chess, then virtually nobody would play for money, like chess.

Re: Is chasing higher ranked hands ever justified?
 

they were approximately 23-1 underdogs on the flop drawing to that backdoor flush. probably worse given the strength of your hand/draw. they got lucky. it happens.

Re: Is chasing higher ranked hands ever justified?
 

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they got lucky. it happens.

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Often. Oh! It happens often. It really, really does. LHE (and poker in general I suspect) can and does suck out your will to live.

Hasn't this happened to you three times in the space of four minutes before?

The Way it Really Is
 

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[ QUOTE ]
they got lucky. it happens.

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Often. Oh! It happens often. It really, really does. LHE (and poker in general I suspect) can and does suck out your will to live.

Hasn't this happened to you three times in the space of four minutes before?

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it's funny. we always forget about the times we river that backdoor straight or flush draw. the time we turn a set versus AA or KK. but when it happens to us, whoah watch out! that's not fair!

Re: The Way it Really Is
 

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we always forget about the times we river that backdoor straight or flush draw. the time we turn a set versus AA or KK. but when it happens to us, whoah watch out! that's not fair!

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The feeling I get when I draw out on someone in any way is not in proportion to the feeling of devastation I get when I get drawn out on.

Possibly because I am a non-terrible player, at least in the games I play. As such I will very rarely draw out on someone without playing correctly. Because of this I will also have to cop more of them than I dish out.

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The Way it Really Is

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I know I can't make money at poker without other players making errors. But I know bad beats are terrible. Why can't we acknowledge and celebrate them as such?

Re: The Way it Really Is
 

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I know I can't make money at poker without other players making errors. But I know bad beats are terrible. Why can't we acknowledge and celebrate them as such?

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It's the same mentality the causes people to berate the fish at the table. I'll never figure it out.

If you never took a bad beat, that'd mean you never had people chasing you. And you'd never win money.

Re: The Way it Really Is
 

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It's the same mentality the causes people to berate the fish at the table. I'll never figure it out.

If you never took a bad beat, that'd mean you never had people chasing you. And you'd never win money.

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Yeah I know. Do you enjoy it when you cop a terrible beat? Or an extreme series of them?

Winning money and copping terrible beats are related. But beats feel terrible when they happen. That's what I think.

But I think it would be against the spirit of poker to berate a 'fish'. I don't even like calling them that. The more I play, the more I realise poker is gambling. So I think let them gamble like everyone else at the table.

Re: The Way it Really Is
 

The psychology of the beats, etc gets kind of wacky sometimes.

Perhaps try thinking of yourself as a casino.
In the short-run some customer is going to run hot on blackjack even though they are playing at a 1% disadvantage.
Maybe they are even playing at a much higher disadvantage with really awful strategy like always doubling on hard-12 or something yet they are still making a killing.

No biggie.
"Pay him. Pay that man his money."

Over time you know you have the advantage and will be a winner even if some of the customers get some wins along the way.

The key though is to not assume that what you THINK is winning poker really is or that you are pretty much playing 'correct' poker just because you have a hard time seeing any other way to have played a given hand.
I would bet that almost every single player on this forum makes far more mistakes than they realize.

Re: The Way it Really Is
 

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Do you enjoy it when you cop a terrible beat? Or an extreme series of them?

Winning money and copping terrible beats are related. But beats feel terrible when they happen. That's what I think.

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Nobody enjoys taking bad beats. But I think many of us want to own both sides of the coin. How often do we say "I didn't deserve such a big pot. Two people called bets on the turn and river and neither had odds to call past the flop."? We think we're somehow 'owed' the extra bets that poor players routinely put into the pot and then we get upset when those players get lucky and borrow some of those bets back.

Watch the TV pros. They take horrible beats all the time and generally just shrug their shoulders and wait for the next hand. Sometimes they don't even shrug their shoulders. I'm sure it hurts inside, but they recognize the beats as part of the game.

Re: The Way it Really Is
 

I think the important thing is we get our money in with the best of it.

Re: The Way it Really Is
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you enjoy it when you cop a terrible beat? Or an extreme series of them?

Winning money and copping terrible beats are related. But beats feel terrible when they happen. That's what I think.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nobody enjoys taking bad beats. But I think many of us want to own both sides of the coin. How often do we say "I didn't deserve such a big pot. Two people called bets on the turn and river and neither had odds to call past the flop."? We think we're somehow 'owed' the extra bets that poor players routinely put into the pot and then we get upset when those players get lucky and borrow some of those bets back.

Watch the TV pros. They take horrible beats all the time and generally just shrug their shoulders and wait for the next hand. Sometimes they don't even shrug their shoulders. I'm sure it hurts inside, but they recognize the beats as part of the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Watching High Stakes Poker, I saw an amazing reaction to a really horrible beat. Ted Forrest reached into his pocket and dropped two $25K chips on the table and sat back down. He had absolutely no look on his face whatsoever.

That is a true professional poker player.

OP, while Theory of Poker is the source, SSHE is the Bible. Go and read, with all haste, and read it many times.

Re: Is chasing higher ranked hands ever justified?
 

I really pissed a guy off the other day when I called his PF raise in the BB holding 64s. I flopped a straight, he flopped a set of fives. I check raised him on the turn and the river. All I could tell him was that he hadn't been at the table when I got rivered seven times in the previous 90 minutes with backdoor flushes, inside straight draws, etc. Did I feel guilty raking in the pot? Hell no...

I won't chase an inside straight draw or a BDF draw, but I must admit that I've never met a flush draw I didn't like. Give me Axs or Kxs and I'll see a flop with it every time.

Re: Is chasing higher ranked hands ever justified?
 

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I won't chase an inside straight draw

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Shouldn't you if you have the odds? I find at my loose passive 2/4 B&M table that more often than not I have the implied odds to see the turn chasing a gutshot, and sometimes even the river.

Re: Is chasing higher ranked hands ever justified?
 

Sure, if the pot's big enough.. and there's not two of a suit on the board.

Re: Is chasing higher ranked hands ever justified?
 

lol count

Re: Is chasing higher ranked hands ever justified?
 

Bad thinking on my part Babar? I respect your thinking, so if it's funny for a bad reason do tell....

Re: Is chasing higher ranked hands ever justified?
 

sorry. i just don't see why two of a suit on board would affect our gutshot draw if we have odds...in o8, yes, maybe, but not in holdem really...people don't always have the flushdraw. getting 10:1 or better on a gutshot with two suited on board, and folding, is gonna be -EV in the long run.

Re: Is chasing higher ranked hands ever justified?
 

No need to be sorry. I haven't done the math on it, so I'm not saying your wrong, but in my seat of the pants view I don't like chasing a four-outer when someone else is (or may be) chasing a nine-outer at the same time. (If I have, say, bottom pair w/ a gutshot draw of course I'm probably staying) But then I confess to being generally risk-averse... except of course for my penchant for playing Kxs (and sometimes even Qxs if I can limp) from any position =]