Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

Its typical ama-esque ranting, but you need to read this. No cliffnotes.

Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things

Okay so we are all talking about Party, about downswings and about how its so terrible that poker is so hard now. I need to jump in here because not only do I believe that Party 50nl is one of the most insanely profitable games of poker on the entire internet, but I feel like people aren't taking themselves and their games seriously.

Those of us (including me) who were fortunate enough to experience Party pre-apocalypse were given a truly remarkable gift - endless, drooling morons who just threw their money at you with no idea what the hell they were doing, just trying to be the next Moneymaker. We all embraced the joy that was Party and those who had the skill and the BR to play high (EM2, lolo, KKF, bld etc) made a total killing.

So now, the games are different. I wont say harder, because I don't believe that the games are any less profitable than they were pre-UIEGA, but they are different. It takes more to win. I guess in that sense that they are harder... but what I am getting at is that you don't have to be a very good player to beat the games. What is necessary is that you can't suck as much as you used to be able to. You can't make huge errors and have it not matter anymore, you have to play a good, solid game.

What people don't realise is that Party pre-apoc was not even poker. It was sorta like a mixture between Blackjack, Roulette and Craps, and somehow there were cards on the table for some reason. People weren't playing because it was poker, they were just playing because they wanted to play something. So of COURSE it was [censored] easy. How can it be difficult to beat someone that couldn't read the board?

Well unfortunately chappies, now people actually know how to play. They wont c/c down with T high anymore just because it was suited, they actually understand how poker works. Does that make them good players? NO! Most micro players still make horrific mistakes both pre and postflop and are easily exploited.

If you are finding the games tough now, there is a very good chance that you need to work on your game. You cant just close your eyes and click randomly and have money fall into your lap like you used to. Now, you have to play poker. Complaining that the games got harder isn't correct - what you should be complaining about is that people actually learnt the rules. Its like playing tennis against a dude with his legs tied together, then complaning because he unties himself and starts running around and kicking your ass. Now the playing field is level, and you actually have to outplay your opponents.

If you want to earn money playing a game of skill but you aren't willing to better yourself to obtain a greater edge over your opponents, then go rob a [censored] bank because now, its a game of "the best man shall win". If you expect to make money without doing a shred of work to better your own ability and learn how to outplay your opponents then you deserve to never win. You just can't play like [censored] and make money anymore, period.

Bozzer mentioned that I was running bad in June. This is totally true - over the last few thousand hands I am down about 10bi at 50nl. Now you may say to yourself, meh, variance, AA < KK a couple times, whatever. But you are so [censored] deluded if you think you can have a 10bi+ ds at 50nl and play every hand perfect. NO WAY. I promised myself that I was going to figure out what the hell was wrong with my game, and I have - the results are amazing.

Countless errors. Preflop. Postflop. Combo-street errors. Bet size errors. Read errors. Aggression errors. I realised that I didn't even bother to count my outs anymore. Id just be like "meh, looks like I can push" and be done with it. No attempts to calculate EV at the table. Sloppy play, poor decisions. Of my 10bi, Id say about 5-6 were genuine bad beats. The rest was garbage, tilt, whatever. Spew. Total spew.

People, myself included, just do not think about their games. They just "do" like robots. I see people raise so many hands preflop because Tien told them to or "being aggressive is good" or whatever, wihtout any consideration for table dynamics, opponent characteristics, willingness to fold cbets et-freaking-cetera. People just don't THINK for themselves. Then they misapply concepts that regs have posted in the sticky about and go on 17bi downswings. Well guys the regs came to those conclusions themselves. They write those posts because that is what their experience has taught them. If you just go "durr raise 18% preflop" and do not consider how this fits into your game as a whole... well [censored] yeah, youre gonna lose a LOT of money.

Ive started a new DB and Ive committed myself to becoming a student of the game. My genesis has led to my total shock at how I used to play. I have been studying hands relentlessly, thinking over different permutations both from the perspectives of my villains and my own. Its totally fascinating the insight you will gain into this beautiful game if you take the time to think.

So instead of saying "wow I'm leaving Party the games are so tough, i'll lose money without RB", maybe you should say "there's a huge chance that I suck. I should look into that" and start trying to play in such a way that you don't need rb to turn a nice profit. I was sick when Trig said that he was on a 17bi ds and people were consoling him as if it were just variance. Trig, you have massive holes in your game and you were probably never a good player. Nobody who is a winning player below NL25 should ever, ever be going on a 17bi ds and I don't give a [censored] if you have some fancy mathematical model to prove its possible. You need to work on yourself and we are here to help you, but I'll be [censored] if I'm gonna sit here and tell you its all okay. Sorry to pick on you Trig but its the perfect example of what I am talking about - people just writing it off to variance, to "meh", to "yeah standard".

I have played about 2k hands on my new db and am running at 13/100 at 50nl, including being stacked to a 3 outer and having my AA cracked to 57o. Most of my profit has come from pots that I would not normally have contested and my vpip/pfr/agg stats are completely different to what they were before, particularly street by street. I can see that now I understand poker and I understand what it takes to win. It doesn't matter how good the Party regs are because I am better. If they improve still, then I'll study them harder and find other ways to [censored] with them.

I've renewed my committment to this game, and I will work as hard as I have to in order to win. Will you?

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

Good post. One to definitely save and read again.

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

Thanks for this Interesting post.

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

[ QUOTE ]
I realised that I didn't even bother to count my outs anymore. Id just be like "meh, looks like I can push" and be done with it. No attempts to calculate EV at the table. Sloppy play, poor decisions.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thaaaaat's me [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

ama0330, are you on tilt or why do you say f*** that often? ^^

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

This is very good, I recently lost around 8-9 buyins at NL25. I had stopped reading this forum, and wasn't playing the same game that allowed me to go from NL5 -> NL10 -> NL25 and almost to NL50. I realize that if you ever stop learning, you immediately start falling behind. I'm not kidding, because the game is ever changing, even if it is slow change, and the winning players have to change right along with it to stay winners. If you ever stop studying or learning, you immediately start going backwards.

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

[ QUOTE ]
ama0330, are you on tilt or why do you say f*** that often? ^^

[/ QUOTE ]

Go rob a [censored] bank

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

[ QUOTE ]
ama0330, are you on tilt or why do you say f*** that often? ^^

[/ QUOTE ]

No I am not on tilt, but I am loud, unstable, neurotic and opinionated. I also have a foul mouth and did not go to finishing school, instead spending my time watching pacino movies

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ama0330, are you on tilt or why do you say f*** that often? ^^

[/ QUOTE ]

Go rob a [censored] bank

[/ QUOTE ]

post of the year ahhaha

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

more whining, less poker pls.

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

I think 10 BI Downswings are possible purely because the games are more aggressive both pre and post flop.

My biggest so far was 9 BIs at Party and Ive only played there 1 month, and it lasted 10-15k hands.

I lost 5 BIs in 500 hands and I dont think I misplayed one. If that can happen, 10 BI prolonged downswings are bound to happen regardless of how well you play.

I play much nittier on party 50NL than I used to at Ongame 100NL, and still I experience a lot of variance. You guys who are trying to play LAG there must experience even bigger swings?

I dont really know, I dont have a big sample there (Im ridiculously lazy), but I dont think a 10 BI swing means you're playing terrible.

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

agreed, party nl50 is still super beatable if you study the game.

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

ama = new aba

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

How does one get the title "Euro Smegma"? Just curious
/hijack

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

[ QUOTE ]
How does one get the title "Euro Smegma"? Just curious
/hijack

[/ QUOTE ]

click my name, follow the links and all will be revealed.

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

Ama, dude, I have so many issues with this post. I'll mention 5 and might come back for more tomorrow...(I'm tired so this is a bit of a rant)...

.................................................. .....

1. Some of us who are complaining about PP never played there in the "old days". So it is not a question of relativity, it's a question of absolutes. I couldn't give a rat's ass about PP in 2005. I care about PP today. So let's park the first 2 paras of your post as I think they are irrelevent.

.................................................. ......

2. There are so many contradictory explanations of your downswing. Actually, there are 3:

a. Bad play
[ QUOTE ]
Countless errors. Preflop. Postflop. Combo-street errors. Bet size errors. Read errors. Aggression errors. I realised that I didn't even bother to count my outs anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

b. Bad luck
[ QUOTE ]
Of my 10bi, Id say about 5-6 were genuine bad beats.

[/ QUOTE ]

c. "Sometimes you have to lose"
Here, I cross ref your post from a few weeks ago stating that sometimes you have to lose with the best hand (which I'm sure everyone remembers).


So which is it? You seem all over the place on this. If it is all three, then I think your downswing is exactly the same as recent downswings by Trig or me. In fact, it would be a bit ironic if your post was essentially the same as other DS-moaning posts, but the above quotes seem to suggest it might be mate!

Further, neither Trig nor I said our DSs were 100% bad beats. Sure, you might get that impression from our moaning posts that we think that, but that does not mean we are not aware of LOADS of bad plays and LOADS of standard 70/30 situations not holding up. All these things go together and anyone with half a brain should be able to understand this.

This is why I disagree with this too...

[ QUOTE ]
But you are so [censored] deluded if you think you can have a 10bi+ ds at 50nl and play every hand perfect. NO WAY.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody ever said you play every hand perfectly during a DS. But the small technical errors you mention like incorrect bet sizing or too little aggression explain a bad winrate, but they do not explain a 17BI DS. Surely you can agree with that? The former is about dropping marginal edges that would boost a wr. The latter is about a perfect storm of bad beats, losing too many 60/40's in a row and a few big mistakes. Jesus, as I showed with the above quotes from your posts, you have admitted as much yourself!

.................................................. .......

3. Back to your 10BI downswing. Firstly, good job admitting it because lots of people don't. But here's the thing...how do you know it won't turn into a 17BI's DS? That's a very thin line....is there really that big a difference between a 10 and 17 BI downswing? I really don't think so. You get 2 quick AA-KK situations tomorrow morning, tilt 2 more away after that and boom!, suddenly it's 14BI's. So when you say...

[ QUOTE ]
Nobody who is a winning player below NL25 should ever, ever be going on a 17bi ds

[/ QUOTE ]

...I think you are on very thin ice there.

.................................................. ...

4. Grrrrrrrrrrrrr....

[ QUOTE ]
If you just go "durr raise 18% preflop" and do not consider how this fits into your game as a whole... well [censored] yeah, youre gonna lose a LOT of money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ama, you think that people trying to improve their game here read that durrr raises 18% of hands and then do that too? Jesus man, you're here every day, you see people debating in threads. How in the name of Christ have you come to the conclusion that "people, myself included, just do not think about their games". This is NONSENSE. Some of us think about our games all day (I know you probably do from the quality of your posts).

But thinking about the game IS NOT THE SAME as being able to put it readily into practice. You seem to be saying that if you think about your game you'll automatically improve. Garbage. It is not that simple.

For exapmple, I understand 3betting light can be profitable. I've seen posts about it. I've thought about it. But do I do it? No, not very often. Why? Precisely because I am thinking about the WHY of 3b light. But thinking about it is not the same thing as being good enough (or, having the skill) to fix the problem. But that does not mean people are merely pressing buttons like robots.

Fwiw, I agree that we ALL get into bad habits, but that is different to what you are talking about above, which seems to me to be about a more profound laziness that I simply don't recognise from many poster here.

Fwiw, I don't even know who durrr is.

.................................................. ....


5. Next...this para...

[ QUOTE ]
So instead of saying "wow I'm leaving Party the games are so tough

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't see anyone saying this. My last post on this matter merely said the players at PP aren't so bad that the lack of RB makes it overwhlemingly worthwhile playing there. It is probably a marginal call one way or the other.

[ QUOTE ]
maybe you should say "there's a huge chance that I suck. I should look into that"

[/ QUOTE ]

People admit this on these forums every day. My loaction admits as much for Chrissakes - with absolutely ZERO irony. I get the impression that 95% of uNL regs are fully aware of their limitations. So I don't think it's fair to suggest they are unaware of this fact.

[ QUOTE ]
and start trying to play in such a way that you don't need rb to turn a nice profit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please tell me you are not suggesting wilfully giving up an edge the size of 1ptbb/100+? Isn't wr + rb > wr alone? If yes, then it is utter nonsense to decray people saying they won't go without RB. And of course the pursuit of a better wr need not preclude the pursuit of better rb...the 2 can go together.

........................................

Finally, obviously this post is made in the spirit of healthy debate and I mean no edge to come across at all.

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

People on party have it so easyyyyy. It's way easier than any other site on the net so if you're losing at party you need to get a coach or quit. Secondly, it's [censored] HARD to find leaks by yourself. You need to have a coach/friend that is actually good go over your game and watch you play because you won't be objective about your game.

Everyone should have a coach at $50NL+ and make sure they are qualified.

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

ama, nice read. but i cant say i agree with everything you said.

You are assuming no one at uNL is thinking about their games and are all playing a "robotized" game. That assumption from you is a little egocentric. Just because you reached a part of your evolution as a poker player where you realizes you needed to think more about what you were doing, doesnt mean that everyone here at 2+2 is not doing it/ has never done it. I myself have stoped playing for 1 week trying to study my own game and find leaks. Most people will do it in their poker life span.

As for PP, i dont know as I have never played there. But regarding the profit with or without RB, why would someone give up on free money? I dont think that players at NL50 are that bad in PP that they can compensate on 500$+ each month for me.

PS- Good luck to recovering that DS!

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wont say harder, because I don't believe that the games are any less profitable than they were pre-UIEGA

[/ QUOTE ]

i disagree with this and so do alot of other people on 2+2 (from posts i've read)

trying to squeeze a profit from a table of 18/11s or one-tabling a juicy game isn't as profitable as pre-ban party

esit: oops, this is a Party thread. i haven't played there since the ban, so i have no idea what the games are like

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

Ama,

Poker often misleads us with regard to cause and effect because it is such a complex game that any experience we have (and base our intuitive opinions on) is only a tiny fraction of the whole picture. This is why a mathematical approach often produces counter-intuitive results. This is also why the fish stay bad. Often bad play is rewarded and an intuitive approach reconfirms this bad play.

I think you are blessed that your biggest downswing so far was 10 buy-ins but you are a fish in the above sense with regard to thinking that you can extrapolate from that that bigger downswings are not possible or that it was your relative skill that has so far saved you from having them.

That said, of course I didn't play perfect during the last 15k hands that this downswing encompasses. If I could play perfect I would get myself staked to play against Sammy Farha.

This is not meant as defensive or lashing out back at you because you used me as an example in your rant. (I actually respect you very much because you went out of your way to help me out before.) I simply think you are wrong in a mathematical sense.

As I have stated repeatedly I'm less sick about these 17 buy-ins than most readers, because I have analysed my play and have an idea where they come from.

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

i don't think ama is saying that large downswings are impossible. he just wants people to man up when they occur and stop chalking them up to variance and start entertaining the possibility that it may be the result of leaks and poor play.
obviously part of not hitting downswings is running well, but the more important part is playing well. if you keep getting busted by sets on rag boards when you hold QQ+, then people may be catching on that you can't lay down big pairs. plug your leak and you will find that people don't set mine against you.

if it is "so easy" to hit a 10 bi downswing (much less 17 bi), why is conventional wisdom to set your bank roll at as low as 20 bi's? in the "mathematical sense" if you are getting your money in in +ev spots, even if they are spots in which you are a marginal favorite it is unlikely that you will lose 10 consecutive bi's. obv this is subject to playing style, but i don't see many lags around the ssnl forums, so no one should be crying about variance.

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

[ QUOTE ]
if it is "so easy" to hit a 10 bi downswing (much less 17 bi), why is conventional wisdom to set your bank roll at as low as 20 bi's?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would one need more than 10 if it wasn't?

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if it is "so easy" to hit a 10 bi downswing (much less 17 bi), why is conventional wisdom to set your bank roll at as low as 20 bi's?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would one need more than 10 if it wasn't?

[/ QUOTE ]

it (your bankroll) is a buffer to protect against poor play as well as when you run bad. i'll agree that it is easy to lose 10 bi's. . . when you are playing poorly. when you hit a downswing it is more likely that you have made a mistake than it is that you have run poorly (throughout the entire downswing).

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if it is "so easy" to hit a 10 bi downswing (much less 17 bi), why is conventional wisdom to set your bank roll at as low as 20 bi's?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would one need more than 10 if it wasn't?

[/ QUOTE ]
Furthermore, the 20bi roll is only good enough if you're willing to move down when things go bad. That's the whole idea of it, otherwise you'd probably need something in the range of 40bi, maybe even more.

I disagree with ama in one point: Pure downswings of 15bi and more are absolutely possible. I know that, because I've been there. And yes, I have investigated every single big pot I have been involved in during and after that stretch (-28bi total over 3 levels and some 10-12k hands). As someone else said before, the main culprits were those 60/40s, 80/20s and 50/50s that didn't hold up as often as one would expect over a long stretch. Add in an unlucky run with KK/QQ running into better hands, and you can end up in trouble easily.
Sure, bad play was involved, too, but in my case that accounted for around 6 or 7 buyins out of the 28. Still leaves a net of 20+.

Having said all that, one should not automatically think downswings occur b/c of variance. Those are the times where you need to dissect your games and get full value out of pokertracker to figure out if, and what you were doing wrong.

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

I'm not disagreeing with the part about analysing your play. You should in fact do this after every session, not just in a downswing. What I'm objecting to is this line of thought:

[ QUOTE ]
Trig, you have massive holes in your game and you were probably never a good player. Nobody who is a winning player below NL25 should ever, ever be going on a 17bi ds and I don't give a [censored] if you have some fancy mathematical model to prove its possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I contend that the thinking behind a statement like this is a more sophisticated version of "hey, I don't care about your fancy odds talk. I won the hand, right?"

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

I have lost 40 flips in a row ... most of them in my favor ... while playing sngs.


[censored] just does happen.

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

Hey everyone,

I'm glad that my post generated so much debate. I tend to be ccaustic and opinionated (particularly, yet not exclusively, online) and though I do feel like I am a bit of a bitch at times, I like to think that I get peoples minds ticking over. So I'll respond to a few things first...

Chomp

There are so many contradictory explanations of your downswing. Actually, there are 3:

a. Bad play
b. Bad luck
c. "Sometimes you have to lose"

None of these are even remotely contradictory and all of them are extremely relevant. Of my 10bi, I estimated that 5ish were bad play. How is this either contradictory or irrelevant? What I am saying is that literally half my downswing was bad play. i don't understand what you are trying to say when you say...

So which is it? You seem all over the place on this.

...its all three. My point is that my ds was twice as bad as it should have been due to bad play, and that I was deluding myself into writing it all off as variance.

If it is all three, then I think your downswing is exactly the same as recent downswings by Trig or me.

...exaclty. In other words, caused 50% or more by bad play. Which means that there is a huge amount of improvement to be made by all three of us.

In fact, it would be a bit ironic if your post was essentially the same as other DS-moaning posts, but the above quotes seem to suggest it might be mate!

You've lost me here because that was not even remotely related to the point of my original post, which was not a "ds moaning post". It was "ensure that at all times you are commmitted to improvement in your game and do not ever take anything for granted. Question every play and accept that if you lost a buyin that there is an excellent chance that poor play was a contributing factor". You should start with the burden of proof on your side - i.e. "you played it bad until proven otherwise". Thats the point of my post. I'm suprised that you thought my post was a ds whine?

But the small technical errors you mention like incorrect bet sizing or too little aggression explain a bad winrate, but they do not explain a 17BI DS. Surely you can agree with that?

No, I don't. I believe that these errors are more important than people realise, and that's another point I'm trying to make. There was an excellent post made by grunch a while back called "Difficult decisions, bad designs" which you can find here:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...Number=6454057

It basically encourages people to avoid difficult decisions on later streets by making decisions on earlier streets which will set up the hand in such a way that you know at all times what your plan is and where you stand. I suggest that the reason so many people end up in such high variance and marginal situations is that they do not consider, as I suggested in my OP, the bigger picture. Table dynamics, opponent tendencies, etc etc.

I play a low variance style of poker. I will only play high variance poker when I deem it to be necessary, and the only place where high variance becomes necessary is at 200nl and above where your opponents become less and less exploitable and accordingly, your edge decreases dramatically. It becomes necessary to exploit even the smallest opportunity that your opponent gives you in order to turn a profit.

This kind of play is just not necessary at 50nl and below. People playing 25/20 and raising flop cbets and crai turn agasint a calling station are, in my opinion, taking unnecessary and avoidable risks which I deem to be, at best 0EV. Players at this level are too unpredictable to say with any certainty that raising a flop cbet is anything other than unecessary. Naturally there are times for this, but only as part of a wider, more thought out strategy against one particular player. I believe that "well he is 20/15/3, so this is a cbet a lot of the time, and tho I have no reads and no history, I checkraise" is poor play.

Back to your 10BI downswing. Firstly, good job admitting it because lots of people don't. But here's the thing...how do you know it won't turn into a 17BI's DS?

I believe that my skill is sufficient that even with bad beats all over the place, I am good enough to run breakeven. What you neglect in your analysis is that although we lose a lot of pots in a downswing, we dont stop winning them either. In my lifetime I've lost thousands of bi, but I've won bi too which means that I havent had a 1,000bi downswing. I know you know this, but the point is that a 17bi ds is so serious not because its 17bi but because you didn't win any in that time. Some losses are unavoidable, but what you will find is that most losses are.

That's a very thin line....is there really that big a difference between a 10 and 17 BI downswing?

Sorry, but yes. There is a colossal difference between the two. You can't just trifle away 7bi. And you're really shooting yourself in the foot here....

You get 2 quick AA-KK situations tomorrow morning, tilt 2 more away after that and boom!

This is my WHOLE POINT. You say "tilt 2 bi away" like its just standard or something. 2bi is a LOT of EV to be throwing down the drain. Can't you see that this is exactly what I'm saying? Downswings dont have a mind of their own if you are just tilting 2bi away without thinking about it. This is the whole reason for my post. If you are tilting 2bi away then you have room for improvement and you need to read my OP.

Nobody who is a winning player below NL25 should ever, ever be going on a 17bi ds
...I think you are on very thin ice there.

I don't. I just don't. The reason is that the downward force of bad variance is constantly being battled against by the positive force of our massive edge. Thats the reason that downswings at higher levels are so understandable (and so devastating), because this upward force is so much less, because the edge is so much smaller. There is a fantastic post that I am so pissed that I can't find. It basically goes through the math of losing a buyin to tilt or bad play and how long it takes to make that buyin back, assuming a certain winrate. The point of the post is that it takes a LOT of time to make it back and losing a bi to bad play is a serious hinderance which should be avoided at all costs.

If you just go "durr raise 18% preflop" and do not consider how this fits into your game as a whole... well [censored] yeah, youre gonna lose a LOT of money.

Ama, you think that people trying to improve their game here read that durrr raises 18% of hands and then do that too?

You mis-understood me, I wasn't talking about Durrr, I was just saying "duh". As in, "I raise 18% of my hands without understanding why. Derrrr" [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

So instead of saying "wow I'm leaving Party the games are so tough
I can't see anyone saying this. My last post on this matter merely said the players at PP aren't so bad that the lack of RB makes it overwhlemingly worthwhile playing there. It is probably a marginal call one way or the other.

Thats fine. I wanted to quash the assumption that Party was something other than ludicrously profitable.

Please tell me you are not suggesting wilfully giving up an edge the size of 1ptbb/100+? Isn't wr + rb > wr alone? If yes, then it is utter nonsense to decray people saying they won't go without RB. And of course the pursuit of a better wr need not preclude the pursuit of better rb...the 2 can go together.

Again, I'm not saying that at all. Im saying that you should be making enough money where RB should be a nice bonus and not the be all and end all. I'm saying that if having rb or not makes the difference between playing the site or not, even if your edge is so much huger, then maybe that's something you should look at, because it seems to me like what that implies is that you see a great deal of your profit coming from RB.

I'm not trying to debate the necessity or utility of RB in any way.


Anyway I'm at work, more later.

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not trying to debate the necessity or utility of RB in any way.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm just going to chime in here to mention that for Party Poker, Party does not provide Rakeback and Party does not permit Rakeback via any 3rd party affiliate.

The closest thing to Rakeback that you can get now is via the new Party points system. For info and discussion on that check out the Internet Bonuses forum or the Rakeback forums.

If this thread does turn into a discussion about Party Rakeback it will get locked/edited as required.

[ QUOTE ]
People on party have it so easyyyyy. It's way easier than any other site on the net so if you're losing at party you need to get a coach or quit. Secondly, it's [censored] HARD to find leaks by yourself. You need to have a coach/friend that is actually good go over your game and watch you play because you won't be objective about your game.

Everyone should have a coach at $50NL+ and make sure they are qualified

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I don't think Party is "waayyyy easier" than any other site around. I thnk that much of the people who say stuff like that are US residents who have a severe case of "grass is greener" syndrome.

50NL at Party is very soft and very beatable, tho I think that the same can be said of 50NL at any of the big sites.

Also yes it's [censored] hard to find leaks yourself - that is the whole reason that we all post here on these forums.

To share our leaks and get other more objective peoples feedback on how we play and how we should play. You certainly don't need to hire a coach. Read the forums, ask advice from players who's opinions are respected, talk about hands on AIM or similar with quality posters, dl vids from people you like watch and ask questions about them, join Cardrunners etc and you ought to be able to build a solid basic fundamental TAG poker game that will let you beat uNL stakes for a decent clip.

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

i just got out of a downswing, believe me 15 buyins is possible. Your gonna get one some day.

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

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I have lost 40 flips in a row ... most of them in my favor ... while playing sngs.


[censored] just does happen.

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Do you know what the odds of losing 40 coinflips in a row are?
I think Ama is saying... if you can't beat NL50 it's not because your opponents are too tough [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Table selection doesn't hurt though

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

party is pretty soft.. but not really much softer than other sites. My winrates higher on FTP than party - so im back on FTP for now [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have lost 40 flips in a row ... most of them in my favor ... while playing sngs.


[censored] just does happen.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you know what the odds of losing 40 coinflips in a row are?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, and it still happens [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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I have lost 40 flips in a row ... most of them in my favor ... while playing sngs.


[censored] just does happen.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you know what the odds of losing 40 coinflips in a row are?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, and it still happens [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Sngs are a lot different to cash games. They are a whole new level of variance and tho they are a good example of "best hand doesn't always win", you cant really justify a 20bi cash game downswing by comparing it to losing 40 sng flips.

edit: because in cash games, we play 5 streets and not 1 OH SNAP [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have lost 40 flips in a row ... most of them in my favor ... while playing sngs.


[censored] just does happen.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you know what the odds of losing 40 coinflips in a row are?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, and it still happens [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Sngs are a lot different to cash games. They are a whole new level of variance and tho they are a good example of "best hand doesn't always win", you cant really justify a 20bi cash game downswing by comparing it to losing 40 sng flips.

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Actually you can ... 40BI swings are not common in sngs, they are more or less the equivalent of a 20BI swing in cash. One of those once in a blue moon occurances, but that doesn't mean they do not happen.

The same with your reasonings Ama, while I agree with this post on the state of party etc., saying that a downswing can't occur is not true.

While it is highly unlikely, it can occur ... high pocket pairs vs. higher pocket pairs, set over set, flushes losing to sets filling up and sets losing to flushes ... all the marginal stuff.

Once in a while, some unlucky poor bastard is going to experience a cooler that ends all coolers and there isn't a thing he can do about it.

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

If you look at the maths and include the sample size (sessions played by all the people in this forum collectively) then it isn't even highly unlikely that a few players end up with a massive bunching of those streaks.

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

Are you really interpreting my post as "downswings are impossible"? Honestly

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

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Are you really interpreting my post as "downswings are impossible"? Honestly

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But you are so [censored] deluded if you think you can have a 10bi+ ds at 50nl and play every hand perfect. NO WAY.

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Sounds like it, doesn't it?

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

How about this one

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Nobody who is a winning player below NL25 should ever, ever be going on a 17bi ds and I don't give a [censored] if you have some fancy mathematical model to prove its possible.

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Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have lost 40 flips in a row ... most of them in my favor ... while playing sngs.


[censored] just does happen.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you know what the odds of losing 40 coinflips in a row are?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, and it still happens [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
So what are they?

Re: Party Poker, 50NL, and the state of things
 

iv been through one, and if you come out, you feel like your gonna run hot for 2months. Im on a sick heater now too. I play good and run good.