I fold TP vs LAG. ok?
 

Villain is LAGGY, something like 45/25. No other reads, but he seemed bad.

Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $3/$6
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is BB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, Hero checks.

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3SB, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, CO folds, SB calls.

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3.5BB, 2 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises</font>, Hero folds...?

Bonus question: is it ok to just call the flop? The pot is tiny but the board is pretty drawy. Dunno which is most important.

Re: I fold TP vs LAG. ok?
 

i was gonna say just call the flop, CO still makes a mistake calling with a gutshot IMO and u never drive out a better draw than that. not sure im rite tho.

u can fold as played pretty safely in my honest opinion even aganst a 45/25

Re: I fold TP vs LAG. ok?
 

before even reading the hand I thought "no"

and now that I've read the hand, I still think no. the turn brings like a bajillion pair+draw hands that he can be semibluffing.

as for the flop I would raise here too, but I'm sure that calling has some merit in this tiny pot

Re: I fold TP vs LAG. ok?
 

nonononono

If i'm gonna fold to a c/r i'm gonna check behind which i'm not gonna do so i'm not gonna fold to a c/r

I just call any river here, except a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] which i fold

Re: I fold TP vs LAG. ok?
 

ew no

Re: I fold TP vs LAG. ok?
 

[ QUOTE ]
nonononono

If i'm gonna fold to a c/r i'm gonna check behind which i'm not gonna do so i'm not gonna fold to a c/r

I just call any river here, except a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] which i fold

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually never fold here. But since it was a smallish pot and that turn helped a lot of hands he would donk with I figured I could fold.

BTW I hated myself when I did it.

Oh, and I would never check behind on this board, dunno if thats a mistake...

Re: I fold TP vs LAG. ok?
 

i could def be wrong but i dont think people bluff like this enough where it warrants a calldown (bet and get raised and cr a turn with what they figure to be the worst hand). I base that simply on the times I come across a laggy player and calldown a cr here with TPGK and a flush redraw, or two pair or a set or whatever, its hardly ever like Ad6 Ad7 9d8 cuz noone donks that 3 ways or cr's it after u raise the flop often enough where the parlay they did both is a huge concern.

maybe im way off, just my experience tho.

Re: I fold TP vs LAG. ok?
 

I like you play, though calling it down is close in my opinion. Think it is very read dependent, so hard to come up with a perfect line.

Re: I fold TP vs LAG. ok?
 

[ QUOTE ]


If i'm gonna fold to a c/r i'm gonna check behind which i'm not gonna do so i'm not gonna fold to a c/r



[/ QUOTE ]

Is this your rule for this hand or every hand? There are plenty of circumstances where it is correct to fire on the turn yet fold to a check-raise. I believe this is one of those times. Top pair weak kicker is often way behind and drawing slim to dead here. Often enough to fold. But I like the turn bet. It gets you plenty of free showdowns.

Re: I fold TP vs LAG. ok?
 

[ QUOTE ]


Bonus question: is it ok to just call the flop? The pot is tiny but the board is pretty drawy. Dunno which is most important.

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling the flop is my standard play here. I believe raising the flop is a significant mistake in this spot.

Re: I fold TP vs LAG. ok?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


If i'm gonna fold to a c/r i'm gonna check behind which i'm not gonna do so i'm not gonna fold to a c/r



[/ QUOTE ]

Is this your rule for this hand or every hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

this hand. see villain description.

Re: I fold TP vs LAG. ok?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Bonus question: is it ok to just call the flop? The pot is tiny but the board is pretty drawy. Dunno which is most important.

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling the flop is my standard play here. I believe raising the flop is a significant mistake in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

care to elaborate?

a LAG will raise a lot of his KX hands preflop so we are looking at a smaller pair or a draw most of the time here.

Re: I fold TP vs LAG. ok?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Bonus question: is it ok to just call the flop? The pot is tiny but the board is pretty drawy. Dunno which is most important.

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling the flop is my standard play here. I believe raising the flop is a significant mistake in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks ILP!

Whats your line in this spot after the flop call? Do you raise a blank turn or do you just keep calling down?

Re: I fold TP vs LAG. ok?
 

bump for flop play discussion

I liked the raise but ILP seems to feel strongly about a call

Re: I fold TP vs LAG. ok?
 

[ QUOTE ]
before even reading the hand I thought "no"

and now that I've read the hand, I still think no. the turn brings like a bajillion pair+draw hands that he can be semibluffing.


[/ QUOTE ]

Re: I fold TP vs LAG. ok?
 

but its not that clear since i feel the new LAG trend is to c/r
only strong hands knowing they will get looked up lightly, i think it depends here on the overall situation at the table but
standard would be not to fold

Re: I fold TP vs LAG. ok?
 

I generally call the flop and raise the turn, but not this particular turn. I would just call all streets barring a 4-flush board.

Re: I fold TP vs LAG. ok?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Bonus question: is it ok to just call the flop? The pot is tiny but the board is pretty drawy. Dunno which is most important.

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling the flop is my standard play here. I believe raising the flop is a significant mistake in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks ILP!

Whats your line in this spot after the flop call? Do you raise a blank turn or do you just keep calling down?

[/ QUOTE ]

I just call down most of the time. In this situation you will usually make more money by inducing a lesser hand/bluff to bet your hand all the way than you can by taking the initiative with a raise and hoping some lesser hand pays you off. Also if the villain is tricky, this would be another reason supporting a flop call. In small pots vs tricky/aggressive opponents, you will almost always be better off letting the villain keep the initiative when you have a decent hand that cant handle much heat.

I would only consider raising the flop against a very straight foward opponent who is a super showdown money that will gladly call me down with middle and bottom pair here. I would also raise the flop vs a maniac like Chuck999 on AP cuz he will 3bet the flop with nothing and I get to raise the turn and let him 3bet with nothing again. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: I fold TP vs LAG. ok?
 

I miss Chuck...

Re: I fold TP vs LAG. ok?
 

goddamn, see next post

Re: I fold TP vs LAG. ok?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Bonus question: is it ok to just call the flop? The pot is tiny but the board is pretty drawy. Dunno which is most important.

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling the flop is my standard play here. I believe raising the flop is a significant mistake in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks ILP!

Whats your line in this spot after the flop call? Do you raise a blank turn or do you just keep calling down?

[/ QUOTE ]

I just call down most of the time. In this situation you will usually make more money by inducing a lesser hand/bluff to bet your hand all the way than you can by taking the initiative with a raise and hoping some lesser hand pays you off. Also if the villain is tricky, this would be another reason supporting a flop call. In small pots vs tricky/aggressive opponents, you will almost always be better off letting the villain keep the initiative when you have a decent hand that cant handle much heat.

I would only consider raising the flop against a very straight foward opponent who is a super showdown money that will gladly call me down with middle and bottom pair here. I would also raise the flop vs a maniac like Chuck999 on AP cuz he will 3bet the flop with nothing and I get to raise the turn and let him 3bet with nothing again. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

But there is a CO hanging round that prolly doesn't fold when we don't raise the flop. So what if he sticks around on the turn? On the river?

Re: I fold TP vs LAG. ok?
 

CO overcalling all the way down is a good thing in this tiny pot, its one of two factors pushing us to just call

my only question is if we should free showdown raise this turn to knock out CO when he has a pair+ small diamond? If we have the best hand and lose the only villain with a diamond draw it does alot for our equity. Its close tho on whether its worth the one BB investment to improve our equity by about a BB (when and if he actually folds a hand like 5sxd), lose his possible overcall here on the turn and river and possibly risk getting 3bet bluffed by sb (not a huge concern in my book?)

Re: I fold TP vs LAG. ok?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i could def be wrong but i dont think people bluff like this enough where it warrants a calldown (bet and get raised and cr a turn with what they figure to be the worst hand). I base that simply on the times I come across a laggy player and calldown a cr here with TPGK and a flush redraw, or two pair or a set or whatever, its hardly ever like Ad6 Ad7 9d8 cuz noone donks that 3 ways or cr's it after u raise the flop often enough where the parlay they did both is a huge concern.

maybe im way off, just my experience tho.

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally agree - solid fold imo.
I don't raise the flop.

Re: I fold TP vs LAG. ok?
 

HU, I like ILP's line of just calling down.

As played, I tend to check behind this turn alot because against a LAG I'm getting C/R (often on a bluff, so I have to call down, ick) or he folds, whereas If I check behind, I can draw a bet from A4 or whatever on the river.