Tourney situation. Omaha version of classic Holdem AA question
 

25 ppl left in tourney. 24 are paid. I am 20th in chips. 4 ppl are under 10k. Does anyone fold? 19th-24th get paid 33 bucks. I invested 5.50 in the tourney.

Poker Stars
Pot Limit Omaha Tournament
Blinds: t600/t1200
5 players
Converter


Stack sizes:
UTG: t21265
CO: t38015
Button: t11792
Hero: t20860
BB: t96629


Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is SB with 2c Th Ah Ac
UTG folds, CO raises to t4200, Button folds, Hero raises to t13800, BB folds, CO raises to t23400, Hero calls all-in t7060.
Uncalled bets: t2540 returned to CO.


Flop: 3h Qs 5c (t42920, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: t42920)



Turn: 4d (t42920, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: t42920)



River: 6d (t42920, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: t42920)

Re: Tourney situation. Omaha version of classic Holdem AA question
 

The villian is a major insane donk. He has blown chips on top pair and other horrible hands several times while i have been sitting here. His raises are meaningless. Big stacks in this tourney do garbage raises all the time preflop, and in last 10 hands he blew 20k plus in chips.

Re: Tourney situation. Omaha version of classic Holdem AA question
 

when i read the title, i assumed there was going to be like a 5-way allin preflop or something and then i can say you could fold.

yet i see you're HU with doublesuited aces. of course you should reraise and get it allin. go for #1

Re: Tourney situation. Omaha version of classic Holdem AA question
 

Even though i can fold to money?

Re: Tourney situation. Omaha version of classic Holdem AA question
 

do you want to win the tournament or squeak into a 20some dollar profit?

Re: Tourney situation. Omaha version of classic Holdem AA question
 

I am chuck's friend. You have to give credit to chuck because he played this 5.50 6 - handed on stars w/o rebuying or adding on. Prize pool is 3,395 dollars with 933 going to first.

Opponents' hand was: Ad Kh 7c 6s

I am partly to blame as well because we were having this very discussion on aim whether to go forit on bubble with aces. I was just discussing with him where i said,


charles (12:16:27 AM): in omaha
charles(12:16:31 AM): you can fold aa
charles (12:16:34 AM): on bubble
Phanekim (12:16:36 AM): haha
Phanekim (12:16:38 AM): with ease
charles (12:16:45 AM): akq2 ds
Phanekim (12:16:50 AM): actually
Phanekim (12:16:57 AM): u can make arguement other wise
Phanekim (12:17:07 AM): unlike in holdem
Phanekim (12:17:11 AM): your raise means obvious
Phanekim (12:17:12 AM): aces
charles (12:17:16 AM): not here
charles (12:17:37 AM): aads
Phanekim (12:17:52 AM): he could fold
Phanekim (12:17:54 AM): if u repop him
Phanekim (12:18:08 AM): he's been seatling
charles (12:18:37 AM): yep
Phanekim (12:18:51 AM): that was unbelievable

Haha...just thought i'd add this in...personal flavor chuck :P.

Btw, the retard was like at 60k...within 1 minute he was down to 25k.

Re: Tourney situation. Omaha version of classic Holdem AA question
 

I was getting it in with best of it repeatedly against big stacks. Big stacks were playing small pairs in raised pots, and unsuited hands. 5 hands earlier I reraised big stack's initially raise to put myself allin with acjckk, and it held up on js2s5h5c8s board versus big stack and this hands villian, so I had plenty of chances to get in it with the best.

Re: Tourney situation. Omaha version of classic Holdem AA question
 

[ QUOTE ]
do you want to win the tournament or squeak into a 20some dollar profit?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Tourney situation. Omaha version of classic Holdem AA question
 

If you had like 1000 chips to start the hand, maybe you could fold to the money because you have so little chance of first. Here getting a 42k stack gives you a great chance to do well in the tourney, you have to take this shot.

Re: Tourney situation. Omaha version of classic Holdem AA question
 

I guess my point that I have at least 4 more shots to put in with best of it against insane donks doesnt resonate with anyone. I have noticed that almost all the posts are cash game posts, does anyone actually play tourneys online? I ask because this was an unlimited rebuy/addon tourney, and I saw endless shoving with overpair no redraw, and other horrible plays.

For instance, during the second hour of tourney i potted from button with 99tt ss for 1/3 my stack. flop came k3t rainbow. big stack checks, i shove allin. He calls with t256 ds, essentially drawing dead.

Re: Tourney situation. Spoiler at end.
 

I understand the general opinion. I just wanted to see, given the endless juicy situations in this tourney, if folding away one opportunity was correct. I hope everyone reads phanekim's post. villian shoved ak76 rainbow.

Re: Tourney situation. Omaha version of classic Holdem AA question
 

[ QUOTE ]
The villian is a major insane donk. He has blown chips on top pair and other horrible hands several times while i have been sitting here. His raises are meaningless. Big stacks in this tourney do garbage raises all the time preflop, and in last 10 hands he blew 20k plus in chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given this read on your opponent and the fact that you only need to get to #18 to move up in prizes, you are risking $33 to win $60+ and being in good position to win even more with somedthing that looks at least 75/25 in your favor (not the hand which is good but not a monster, but the hand combined with the fact your opponent seems to be tilting heavily). Push.

Against a player who has been playing solidly and sound over the last hands, you have not got first in vigor, which is important in tourneys, if you raise back at him you risk more than you win by folding him, then you'll need to be 75/25 (or 70/30 or thereabouts) to win against a good solid range of hands, which you are not quite with AAds.

Against a short stack, that will not prevent you from folding into the money if you lose this hand, again push as you are not risking the $33.

Re: Tourney situation. Omaha version of classic Holdem AA question
 

actually against random hands it was like 68.5% and against this certain hand it was 71.5%

Re: Tourney situation. Omaha version of classic Holdem AA question
 

Actually pay out is at 24. 25 players left. I have aads. How is this hand not a monster. The only better hands are AA two pair ds and aaqt/aaqj ds.

Re: Tourney situation. Omaha version of classic Holdem AA question
 

[ QUOTE ]
Actually pay out is at 24. 25 players left. I have aads. How is this hand not a monster. The only better hands are AA two pair ds and aaqt/aaqj ds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very few hands are really monsters in Omaha in the same way that they might be in Hold'em. There are 5 cards to come.

Against a random hand it is 61%, against the specific hand it was 75% (might be wrong, as I didn't double check before typing) against a decent hand range from a decent player it is less than 61%, that is why in that situation it is not a monster. What makes Hold'em hands monsters is the capability to dominate, which is not really that important in Omaha. In a cash game you'll have sufficient edge to push with this hand, but in tourneys don't always go for the smaller edges, that is my point.

Re: Tourney situation. Omaha version of classic Holdem AA question
 

Against random it is 68%. It was 71% versus specific hand. I agree with your point. The other posters have repeatedly driven home the point that this is very high equity hand, and victory in hand makes deep stack play(By Tourney Standards) a possibility against donks, who spew chips.
My feeling is I would fold this hand 8 times out of 10 in tourney scenario where I am at bubble. To make this worse, I actually revealed my hand to villian b4 my raise and he still pushed. I was amazed that only one poster other than Phanekim, ever said that initial fold is correct play.

EV break down in my head in real cash terms are:
Allin has total Ev of 40 bucks profit assuming average finish of 2nd to last table if i win pot and nothing if I lose. This was based on 66% equity because I gave villian slightly better hand than reality dictated.
Folding is probably profit of 35 bucks. 90% chance I money if I fold, most of that time tables 3 and 4.

The better overall opponents in field are, the better this push is in my opinion.

Re: Tourney situation. Omaha version of classic Holdem AA question
 

do you want advice or what?

Re: Tourney situation. Omaha version of classic Holdem AA question
 

he just wants sympathy

Re: Tourney situation. Omaha version of classic Holdem AA question
 

I wanted advice, I was just testing out arguments either way. There was frustration on my part, but I thank you all for not getting angry at me. It was also a case of trying to find out if ppl will think that sacrificing a quality hand is ever really justified, short of 4-way allin preflop scenarios. The consensus is as long as failure to money isnt going to break one's bankroll, you cant fold a quality hand. Again, I apologize to all the posters who wasted their time on me. The combination of seeing the situation less than 2 minutes before the hand, and my own premonition of the 4 hitting once I saw the flop, drove this discussion from my end. The crazy nature of this tournament, which runs at 9:30 pm pst every night on poker stars, proves just how many bad nlhe players play in omaha events without any reason behind their plays. Hope a few omaha regulars take advantage of the meat.

Re: Tourney situation. Omaha version of classic Holdem AA question
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am chuck's friend. You have to give credit to chuck because he played this 5.50 6 - handed on stars w/o rebuying or adding on. Prize pool is 3,395 dollars with 933 going to first.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure which one of you is a bigger chucklehead.

you - why give credit to someone playing a rebuy tournament incorrectly?

chucky - for playing a hand incorrectly into a tourney, so you can "fold" into the money.

Re: Tourney situation. Omaha version of classic Holdem AA question
 

Go to the hold'em MTT forums and ask if you should fold knowing you're going to be a 2:1 favorite with a slightly below average stack on the bubble. The answer is absolutely not. The payouts for just cashing are always pretty inconsequential compared to those at the final table for any kind of MTT.

Also, never ever skip the add-on. You're getting more chips for the same price as your initial buy-in. If it was worth it to buy 1000 chips for $5, how can it not be worth it to buy 1500 for the same price? (Guessing as to the starting chip stacks and add-on for this tourney. Have no idea what the actual numbers are.)

Re: Tourney situation. Omaha version of classic Holdem AA question
 

I know it was incorrect. He was just goofing off. Thats why I gave him credit, I didn't think he'd get far at all. Neither did he...thats why it is so classic. hah.

Re: Tourney situation. Omaha version of classic Holdem AA question
 

Folding in these situations should be saved for one of the following scenarios:

1) you're on the bubble in a super satellite (1st place = 24th place)

2) you entered a tourney that is worth a significant % (say 20% or more) of your bankroll and squeaking into the money will give you a lot of money by your standards, and you'll go tilty if you lose. (of course, you shouldn't be playing this tourney in the first place).

Also, let's get something clear about the EV of folding vs pushing. At this stage of the tourney, your chip value is still very close to your $ value. Based on the prize pool, the total # of chips in play should be very close to 1 million, so the final 24 will have an average of around 40k chips. As such your 20K stack is worth about $60 and a 43K stack is worth about $130.

The EV of a push is, assuming 2/3 equity, is:

EV = (2/3)*130 - 60 = $27

In order for this to be a -EV play, the $ value of a 43K stack must be only 50% more than a 20K stack. There is absolutely no way that this is the case here.

Re: Tourney situation. Omaha version of classic Holdem AA question
 

I think you should save this kind of dilemma for a hand that deserves it, somehting like AQ54 ds or sometihng like that.