*Official* PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

Few people care about PLO except the people here, so if it gets moved to the WSOP forum, noone will respond. What were the blinds/buyins/locations for PLO games during the WSOP. I remember seeing 25/50 in the Rio with decently deep stacks, but thats all I can recall from last year. I believe I saw a 2/5 game there as well. Does it ever run at Bellagio, Venetian? Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Jason

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

As far as I know the lower stakes games have been played at the Wynn a few times and maybe the venetian. I've never heard of one at the bellagio at any level like 2/5 (and the wynn game I guess played more like 5 5 10 pot pot... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

In the Rio there was usually several 2/5 and 5/10, then one or two tables of 10/25 or 10/25/50 or 25/50/100. Mostly deep, I think they are all uncapped though maybe not the 2/5.

I think even with the decline in numbers there could be more PLO than ever this year.

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

2/5 was capped 5/10 uncapped? iirc, it varied during series. wynn/ven are best shots for med-low limit plo

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

yeah it varied from game to game. I think the board usually said capped at 500 or something ridiculous, then when you sat in you found the players had agreed to go uncapped a long time ago and everyone was playing 2k+. I didn't play in Wynn at all, when I was in the Venetian (rarely) there was no PLO on.

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

games have already started at the rio

there was 10/25 and 2/5 tonight. rumblings in the 10/25 game about trying to move the game to wynn since it's just so much better. OMG they let us play in the high-limit pen (it feels like a pen cause there's this kinda temporary half wall thing around it and people look at you as if you were in a zoo).

also you should keep in mind when figuring what stakes you want to play that most PLO games will have mississippi straddle put on, so really 2-5 is more like 2-5-10, and 10-25 is more like 10-25-50-OLE!

but it's fun.

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

Damnit, I REALLY want to play in some of these games and I strongly feel I'd be a winner, but the highest I've played online is $1/$2 because I'm a nit so putting $500 on the table is scary for me. I don't like buying in short so I probably wouldn't do that. I heard somewhere that they had $1/$2 PLO at the Rio sometimes but I guess that wasn't true =/

MUST. OVERCOME. FEAR!

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

whats the buyin structure for the cash games? last time i tried to get plo spread at the wynn, i believe they were demanding a 1k buyin for 5-5.

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

Thanks for the info Templeton. How deep are the the 5/10 and the 10/25? How good are the players? How good is the action?

Thanks so much,
Jason

P.S. Mississippi straddle is a straddle on the button, and the action starts from the SB?

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

KSOT: if you are beating 1/2 online you should feel good about your chances in 5/10 for sure. I've played a fair bit of both those games and really you should be fine. Go in steps. Once it's in full swing, there should be 2/5, 5/10, 10/25, 25/50 all available basically every day/night.

Jason: np! 5/10 I havne't played any this year, but from last year... There were some people buying in 500, lots of 2-5k, and then usually 1-2 playing rather a lot. The 10/25 last night had most people around 10k, with a couple in the 40-50k range (though I would call that an exceptional circumstance). You should probably expect the 10/25 game to mostly have 5k-15k stacks I would guess.

and yes, mississippi straddle means button gets first option, if he doesn't want it then CO can straddle, etc., etc. action starts immed. left of the straddle

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

KSOT,

Short-stack the 2/5 until you realize it is free money. Also, chips have the wonderful affect of not seeming like real cash. A wonderful invention!

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

[ QUOTE ]
games have already started at the rio

there was 10/25 and 2/5 tonight. rumblings in the 10/25 game about trying to move the game to wynn since it's just so much better. OMG they let us play in the high-limit pen (it feels like a pen cause there's this kinda temporary half wall thing around it and people look at you as if you were in a zoo).

also you should keep in mind when figuring what stakes you want to play that most PLO games will have mississippi straddle put on, so really 2-5 is more like 2-5-10, and 10-25 is more like 10-25-50-OLE!

but it's fun.

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It would be nice to play in Wynn instead, the Rio poker room is just too much of a zoo. But on the other hand the Rio has a constant flow of fish, if it is in the Wynn there will be less people thinking "oooh, Omaha? What's that? Let's give this a spin."

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

[ QUOTE ]
KSOT: if you are beating 1/2 online you should feel good about your chances in 5/10 for sure. I've played a fair bit of both those games and really you should be fine. Go in steps. Once it's in full swing, there should be 2/5, 5/10, 10/25, 25/50 all available basically every day/night.

Jason: np! 5/10 I havne't played any this year, but from last year... There were some people buying in 500, lots of 2-5k, and then usually 1-2 playing rather a lot. The 10/25 last night had most people around 10k, with a couple in the 40-50k range (though I would call that an exceptional circumstance). You should probably expect the 10/25 game to mostly have 5k-15k stacks I would guess.

and yes, mississippi straddle means button gets first option, if he doesn't want it then CO can straddle, etc., etc. action starts immed. left of the straddle

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I haven't played with a mississippi straddle in omaha yet, but in hold'em I think it kind of kills the action having 5/8 of the blind money in best position. I doubt the variance is much higher, and it's definitely not double.

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

I'm having alot of trouble making myself play online, so I'm thinking I'll head down mid June and try and respark my interest in poker... I'll see about getting reservations later this week. Going to bring 10k and start at 2/5, see if i can get up to 10/25 by the end of the trip. Might take a look at the small plo event too, but we'll see.

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

I'm coming down the weekend of July 13th I think and will just play 2/5. I don't think I'll need more than a grand to play properly. I might be playing a little nitty though [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I'll post again in this thread when I arrive and see where everyone is playing. Until then good luck y'all

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

what time of day is there the most PLO action goin on?

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

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[ QUOTE ]
KSOT: if you are beating 1/2 online you should feel good about your chances in 5/10 for sure. I've played a fair bit of both those games and really you should be fine. Go in steps. Once it's in full swing, there should be 2/5, 5/10, 10/25, 25/50 all available basically every day/night.

Jason: np! 5/10 I havne't played any this year, but from last year... There were some people buying in 500, lots of 2-5k, and then usually 1-2 playing rather a lot. The 10/25 last night had most people around 10k, with a couple in the 40-50k range (though I would call that an exceptional circumstance). You should probably expect the 10/25 game to mostly have 5k-15k stacks I would guess.

and yes, mississippi straddle means button gets first option, if he doesn't want it then CO can straddle, etc., etc. action starts immed. left of the straddle

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I haven't played with a mississippi straddle in omaha yet, but in hold'em I think it kind of kills the action having 5/8 of the blind money in best position. I doubt the variance is much higher, and it's definitely not double.

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the games play bigger but the variance isn't double -- to make it double, you would have to not only have a straddle but double all the stacks.

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

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the games play bigger but the variance isn't double -- to make it double, you would have to not only have a straddle but double all the stacks.

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I agree the game plays bigger if you have a lot of preflop raising when someone straddles, because, obviously you can raise to more. And isn't live PLO notoriously full of action, read: preflop raising?

To add even more ability to "action", when I was in the SB or BB I autoput out a full $10 when someone put on a Mississippi Straddle in the 2/5 game. The table VPIP was about 60-70 and avg pot size $200. Often the preflop raises were $40 or so, which is hard to get to without a 3 bet when there is no straddle.

Regarding the literal doubling of variance...Yes as a mean increases, the variance WILL increase under the same conditions. However, remember that variance of your winrate is a SQUARED value. Therefore, all things being played equal, I don't think doubling the blinds and stack sizes would double the variance. But this is a little statistically nitty because who cares about variance in a game where there's a guarantee that you have a positive expectation.

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

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However, remember that variance of your winrate is a SQUARED value. Therefore, all things being played equal, I don't think doubling the blinds and stack sizes would double the variance.

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Yes it would, do you see why?

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

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However, remember that variance of your winrate is a SQUARED value. Therefore, all things being played equal, I don't think doubling the blinds and stack sizes would double the variance.

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Yes it would, do you see why?

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No, explain it to me please.

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

actually I'm not sure now, I think your SD would double which should mean your variance would increase by a factor of 4.

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

[ QUOTE ]
actually I'm not sure now, I think your SD would double which should mean your variance would increase by a factor of 4.

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What you meant to say is that the variance would go up by a factor of 4 and therefore, your standard deviation would be up by a factor of 2.

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

but if your expectation is significantly higher on a per-hand basis, doesn't that also significantly reduce variance? God poker is hard work.

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

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but if your expectation is significantly higher on a per-hand basis, doesn't that also significantly reduce variance? God poker is hard work.

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Actually as your mean (average) expectation goes up, then your variance (and standard deviation) of your expectation goes up too.

But what we really should be talking about is the ratio of mean winrate (expectation) divided by standard deviation (variance)..because the absolute numbers are sort of meaningless.

Why meaningless? Anyone would much rather have a 20 bb/100 hand winrate with a stdev of 60 compared to 3 bb/100 win rate and a 6 stdev.

This metric (mean/stdev) is discussed in 'The Mathematics of Poker' pg 310 and is apparently called The Sharpe Ratio in finance.

From a practical sense, the real difficult thing (for me at least) is wanting to play in a juicy game where you believe you will have a big expectation but the game has a large variance too but you don't have the correct bankroll.

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

what would be a good bankroll in to play in the 2/5 or the 5/10?

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

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From a practical sense, the real difficult thing (for me at least) is wanting to play in a juicy game where you believe you will have a big expectation but the game has a large variance too but you don't have the correct bankroll.

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Yup.

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

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actually I'm not sure now, I think your SD would double which should mean your variance would increase by a factor of 4.

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This debate is so stupid. In common parlance, "variance" is clearly shorthand for "standard deviation."

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

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actually I'm not sure now, I think your SD would double which should mean your variance would increase by a factor of 4.

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This debate is so stupid. In common parlance, "variance" is clearly shorthand for "standard deviation."

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Maybe for "feel" players....

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

Has anyone actually played PLO at the Rio yet?

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

[ QUOTE ]
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actually I'm not sure now, I think your SD would double which should mean your variance would increase by a factor of 4.

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This debate is so stupid. In common parlance, "variance" is clearly shorthand for "standard deviation."

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not really, for 90% of poker players variance is what causes them to lose, the other 10% have a good idea of the mathematical definition.

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

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actually I'm not sure now, I think your SD would double which should mean your variance would increase by a factor of 4.

[/ QUOTE ]

This debate is so stupid. In common parlance, "variance" is clearly shorthand for "standard deviation."

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not really, for 90% of poker players variance is what causes them to lose, the other 10% have a good idea of the mathematical definition.

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lots of people who use the word "variance" in the way I described either understand the mathematical definition or may as well. it's just easier to say "this game has twice the variance" than it is to say "this game has twice as large of a standard deviation," or even worse "this game has four times the variance."

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

perhaps the reason why this forum doesnt get more love is because the "official" wsop omaha thread has degenerated into a statistical nerdfest circlejerk on the concept of variance.

so ill make a final stab at bringing it back into line;
per a previous posters question, *has anyone actually played the plo games spread at the rio yet?*

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

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has anyone actually played the plo games spread at the rio yet?

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I haven't, but they had a ton of PLO going last night. I was talking to Greg while he was waiting for a Badugi seat and saw a lot of good games going in both high and low/med limits.

John Cernuto (whose main passions are Stud 8 and O8) told me that Omaha seems to be going through a revival right now, he said they had more cash games going than he'd ever seen.

I didn't sit down to play, as I'd just put in over 12 hours at Binions (oof), but it looked very good at around 11pm.

A couple Scandies were talking about PLO at Binion's when we were playing 4/8 half kill O8. Obviously they prefer PLO, but even they knew they were getting a great deal at Binion's, where the rake was 5% up to $2 max, and most of the time no rake was taken at all (some shorthanded play at times). We almost always had two tables going, if not three, except when the tourney first started at 2pm.

Good luck!

Felicia [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

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Good luck!

Felicia [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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absolutely fantastic info there, thank you very much felicia.

ill be in town for the 1500$ plo event on the 14th-15th and very much look forward to testing the waters in the low limit PLO cash games when i invariably repot all in with a house against someones quads sometime around the 20th or 30th minute of the tourn.

i really hope cernuto is right, and that this is a real renaissance and not just a flash in the pan, as i just cant wrap my head around o8 and would love to see either omaha hi or plo spread in more casinos.

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

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i really hope cernuto is right, and that this is a real renaissance and not just a flash in the pan, as i just cant wrap my head around o8 and would love to see either omaha hi or plo spread in more casinos.

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F. Cernuto, I called it first. Right here on the forum with no love!

BTW, here's a thread for you and Pete: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...=0#Post10666808

Lastly, I'll leave y'all with this lovely quote, which you'll probably find OT, but which isn't:
"The English language..becomes ugly and inaccurate because out thoughts are foolish, but the slovenliness of our language makes it easier for us to have foolish thoughts."

p.s. Pete probably already played in the PLO games but won't tell anyone, he just started this thread to get info out of others!

p.s.s. I'd much rather be playing out there than typing away on this stupid forum.

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

I played 2-5 PLO at Rio today. It started around like 4:30pm through 8pm or so. The floor changed the max buyin to $1500, so it was pretty deep, but there wasn't much action anyway. A guy sat down who started creating action, but he busted within an hour on a string of pretty bad beats. A 5-10 game started around 6pm, and then another 2-5 table opened which caused our game to break. The "mississippi" straddle was reduced to a button straddle. True MS straddles are allowed from any poisition. There are also some huge games running all the time with thousands flying around, 25-25 and sometimes 25-50.

The 2-5 game felt not a whole lot different from 5-10 game online. Even more like 5-5 games on Pokerroom.com from when it was still open to Americans. It was my first experience playing PLO live though, so maybe I'm just slow to catch on to the differences. I think I'll try to get in it again tomorrow, if I bust from WSOP Event.

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

If he is sneakypete27, which I think he is, then he sat at a PLO 200 or 400 table of mine earlier today. Doubt he'd turn down live action to play online.

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

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If he is sneakypete27, which I think he is, then he sat at a PLO 200 or 400 table of mine earlier today. Doubt he'd turn down live action to play online.

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Who are you talking about?

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

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I played 2-5 PLO at Rio today. It started around like 4:30pm through 8pm or so. The floor changed the max buyin to $1500, so it was pretty deep, but there wasn't much action anyway. A guy sat down who started creating action, but he busted within an hour on a string of pretty bad beats. A 5-10 game started around 6pm, and then another 2-5 table opened which caused our game to break. The "mississippi" straddle was reduced to a button straddle. True MS straddles are allowed from any poisition. There are also some huge games running all the time with thousands flying around, 25-25 and sometimes 25-50.

The 2-5 game felt not a whole lot different from 5-10 game online. Even more like 5-5 games on Pokerroom.com from when it was still open to Americans. It was my first experience playing PLO live though, so maybe I'm just slow to catch on to the differences. I think I'll try to get in it again tomorrow, if I bust from WSOP Event.

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I'm pretty sure I was at your table. I thought it was just kind of 'meh'. If anything, people were pretty timid.

Re: PLO in Vegas during the WSOP---Please keep here
 

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p.s. Pete probably already played in the PLO games but won't tell anyone, he just started this thread to get info out of others!

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You nailed it.

gl

bdd