What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

I think it’s safe to say that the poker boom of the past few years took everyone by surprise. What’s even more surprising to me is that there hasn’t been a 60 Minutes-type piece on the dark side of poker, or an industry-shaking cheating scandal. In my opinion, poker rooms leave themselves exposed to this by not taking extensive precautions to protect the industry. I think much more could be done on the part of management to preserve the integrity of their games. Instead we seem to going in the other direction.

At the Caesars circuit event a dealer made us aware that during the WSOP dealers will be instructed to not do a mini-scramble after every hand. A player will be allowed to ask for a scramble only once with each dealer. This alters a basic dealing procedure that has been in use for many years. These procedures were instituted to standardize dealing rituals and to reduce as much as possible the possibilities of cheating by dealers. Most card rooms instruct dealers to do a mini-scramble after each hand. It can be done in less than 3 seconds. It’s fairly simple for a cheating dealer who can keep a slug of cards that are known to him intact to run up a hand for a compatriot. A proper mini-scramble reduces the possibility of keeping a slug of cards intact for all but the best dealer/mechanics. Harrahs’ procedure just about guarantees that slugs and hands from the previous hand will be intact as the dealers squares the deck for the shuffle. A few false shuffles and a false cut and the con is on, not to mention the advantage for shuffle trackers. If anyone thinks that among the hundreds of dealers at the WSOP there aren’t more than a few capable of making these moves they are very naïve.

What is going on here? Is Harrah’s so short-sighted that they think the few seconds saved by prohibiting the mini-scramble is worth whatever profits that policy might eke out that they’re willing to expose players to even more risks of being cheated than they already are? Do they simply not care? It’s virtually impossible for floor management to police cheating during the zoo that the WSOP has become. The only hope players have is that adherence to long-established dealing procedures will provide some modicum of protection. For Harrah’s to bypass these procedures in the name of profit is typical of their attitude of profit above all else.

BTW, an email expressing this concern was sent to the appropriate person at Harrah’s last week but remains unanswered.

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

I'd be very interested in hearing a follow-up to this...

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

totally agree.

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

[censored] morons.

OTOH, I predict this stupid, asinine rule to hold intact for all of 10 minutes, if that, before dealers go back to their own routine.

It's a pain in the balls to change dealer routines that you are custom to doing and/or adding new ones that make no sense. For one the "one riffle before putting the cards in the shufflemaster" deal some Harrah's rooms in LV took on. I know dealers that don't bother doing it, because it's useless since the shufflemaster will do the shuffling and only pans to the nits to annoy the dealer about another stupid thing.

Or the 2-7 method TT's been privy of and told me about of putting the discards against the pot in the direction of the players - asinine and ripe for mistakes and a waste of time.

Hell, just right there... the 2-7 will ADD time to the hand, but they want to institute something else even dumber to SUBTRACT time between hands.

No one there's putting 2 and 2 together.

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

wow this is amazing to hear this news, thanks for informing everyone, i hope it changes

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[censored] morons.

OTOH, I predict this stupid, asinine rule to hold intact for all of 10 minutes, if that, before dealers go back to their own routine.

It's a pain in the balls to change dealer routines that you are custom to doing and/or adding new ones that make no sense. For one the "one riffle before putting the cards in the shufflemaster" deal some Harrah's rooms in LV took on. I know dealers that don't bother doing it, because it's useless since the shufflemaster will do the shuffling and only pans to the nits to annoy the dealer about another stupid thing.

Or the 2-7 method TT's been privy of and told me about of putting the discards against the pot in the direction of the players - asinine and ripe for mistakes and a waste of time.

Hell, just right there... the 2-7 will ADD time to the hand, but they want to institute something else even dumber to SUBTRACT time between hands.

No one there's putting 2 and 2 together.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually believe the new draw dealing procedures we learned about last month will be tossed out within the first week once the high limit players start complaining. If there are enough non-stop complaints about the mini-scramble procedures I hope that Blair's concerns will be addressed.

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

Requiring a scramble is a no brainer. I am the last person that wants to slow down the game (I want speed poker), but having a scramble is critical.

I too would like to know what Harrahs was thinking.

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Requiring a scramble is a no brainer. I am the last person that wants to slow down the game (I want speed poker), but having a scramble is critical.

I too would like to know what Harrahs was thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

My guess is...

http://images.acclaimimages.com/_gal...11-4252_SM.jpg

>>>>

http://www.artandantiqueemporium.com...king-glass.png

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

How does Harrah's make more money by dealing more hands during a tournament?

Anyway, I recall that skipping the scramble has been a policy at other tournaments, maybe even last year's WSOP. I didn't realize how much of a security risk it was.

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

[ QUOTE ]
How does Harrah's make more money by dealing more hands during a tournament?

Anyway, I recall that skipping the scramble has been a policy at other tournaments, maybe even last year's WSOP. I didn't realize how much of a security risk it was.

[/ QUOTE ]

this may seem a simple, but couldn't they just have each new dealer scramble the deck once before their first deal? isn't everyone happy this way?

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

This isn't in reference to the "wash" that a dealer does when entering the box and starting up the other deck of cards (where they swish the cards in a big circle, north south, east west, make a big deal out it) or when a player asks for it.

A "scramble" is pretty much taking the discards/stub/all the cards from the previous hand and doing a very quick small swoosh around with them, maybe toss in taking some cards off the top and scrunching them into the rest of the deck while picking it up to be straightened out before the dealer goes into the shuffling. It takes all of 3-5 seconds and is just one of those things players don't even think about, its second nature.

Which is why I said, it's typical retarded Harrahs because they bothered to make a rule about something that'll be blown off by the majority of dealers within 10 minutes, but people will need to complain and get on their (Harrahs') case in case they (Harrahs) gets on the dealer's cases over the scrambles.

The scramble is important because without it I could finish dealing a hand, drop the stub completely intact, then pile up the discards, place them on top and start the shuffle right there. See Blair's concern about stacking now?

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This isn't in reference to the "wash" that a dealer does when entering the box and starting up the other deck of cards (where they swish the cards in a big circle, north south, east west, make a big deal out it) or when a player asks for it.

A "scramble" is pretty much taking the discards/stub/all the cards from the previous hand and doing a very quick small swoosh around with them, maybe toss in taking some cards off the top and scrunching them into the rest of the deck while picking it up to be straightened out before the dealer goes into the shuffling. It takes all of 3-5 seconds and is just one of those things players don't even think about, its second nature.

Which is why I said, it's typical retarded Harrahs because they bothered to make a rule about something that'll be blown off by the majority of dealers within 10 minutes, but people will need to complain and get on their (Harrahs') case in case they (Harrahs) gets on the dealer's cases over the scrambles.

The scramble is important because without it I could finish dealing a hand, drop the stub completely intact, then pile up the discards, place them on top and start the shuffle right there. See Blair's concern about stacking now?

[/ QUOTE ]

ok wow. i don't think i've ever seen a dealer not do this. sounds like they're asking for trouble

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

In any industry, if someone doesn't know why a procedure was put in place, they may later move to eliminate it without realizing the consequences. I'm guessing that is what happened here. Hopefully, once things are explained to the powers that be, they'll switch back.

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

I just complained to a supervisor about the policy change and he informed me that for years past dealers have been informed to not do a quick scramble between shuffles and that he's not aware of any policy changes this year. I told him that its a huge security issue because of stacking and card trackers. the supervisor assured me that none of the dealers here know how to stack a deck and that all his dealers are honest. I told him that "I know he's done a great job hiring horrible dealers this year and that I know all of his staff is honest. after all, that's why we 2m in chips were added to the me last year." he said that those responsible for that were fired. I said "oh you found the culprit? no I guess you fired all of your staff last year then." he said most employees were replaced and wished me a happy wsop and walked off.

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just complained to a supervisor about the policy change and he informed me that for years past dealers have been informed to not do a quick scramble between shuffles and that he's not aware of any policy changes this year. I told him that its a huge security issue because of stacking and card trackers. the supervisor assured me that none of the dealers here know how to stack a deck and that all his dealers are honest. I told him that "I know he's done a great job hiring horrible dealers this year and that I know all of his staff is honest. after all, that's why we 2m in chips were added to the me last year." he said that those responsible for that were fired. I said "oh you found the culprit? no I guess you fired all of your staff last year then." he said most employees were replaced and wished me a happy wsop and walked off.

[/ QUOTE ]

typical (and expected) response from them...love your comments though

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

[ QUOTE ]
How does Harrah's make more money by dealing more hands during a tournament?

Anyway, I recall that skipping the scramble has been a policy at other tournaments, maybe even last year's WSOP. I didn't realize how much of a security risk it was.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tourney ends faster?

afish is right though, some guy who knows nothing about poker wants to save 3 seconds a hand (which is about a minut an hour)and saw this "weird scarmblin thing" as a waste.

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

[ QUOTE ]
the supervisor assured me that none of the dealers here know how to stack a deck and that all his dealers are honest.

[/ QUOTE ]

if this doesn't reassure you that everything is fine, i don't know what will.....

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

Harrah's certainly seems to be once again disappointing the masses. Between the registration woes, the inexperienced dealing staff, and this, it really looks like a discouraging situation.

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

[ QUOTE ]
wished me a happy wsop and walked off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Happy WSOP Mike! Happy WSOP everyone!

omg lets jump the tool who said that, drag him outside and tie him to a flagpole.

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wished me a happy wsop and walked off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Happy WSOP Mike! Happy WSOP everyone!

omg lets jump the tool who said that, drag him outside and duct tape him to a flagpole.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

Its absolutely terrible here so far btw. 1-1.5 hour waits for any satellites, the system they are using is beyond ridiculous. Got tons of dealers at empty tables simply sitting there. Dozens literally, while endless lines of players are waiting.

The lines for the main events seem about 2+ hours long as well, they stretch all the way down a ridiculously long hallway.

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

I personally know a dozen high limit players that can manage the WSOP better. Hope I see some at the taping today at Mandalay Bay. These people making me sick.

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

It is pretty standard to not scramble in tournaments. If the cards are mucked correctly there isn't muich security risk to this.

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

Harrah's is just showing the fact that no matter what they do with the WSOP, people will still continue to pay to play in their WSOP tournaments.

The majority of the players aren't like Blair Rodman. 95%+ of the players won't show the initiative to do anything proactive in an attempt to change the WSOP or even complain at all. Why should they? Harrah's has free reign to do as they please. They know that they won't lose anybody. So, why even listen in the first place? Despite all of the horrible changes, event #3 had the largest field ever for non-main event WSOP tournies.

The only way any of this can truly change is for people to speak with their money and refuse to play in the WSOP. Let's be honest, that's not going to happen.

With the way everybody's speaking, it seems as if it's not worth playing in the WSOP. Is this true? Are any players willing to abandon the WSOP for the year? I assure you that if a well-known player such as Daniel Negreanu decided to abandon the WSOP for Harrah's performance issues, it would open up some eyes to the inefficiency of Harrah's Entertainment.

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

how does not having a scramble help harrahs?? i dont get it??

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I assure you that if a well-known player such as Daniel Negreanu decided to abandon the WSOP for Harrah's performance issues, it would open up some eyes to the inefficiency of Harrah's Entertainment.


[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately there is absolutely zero chance of this happening. Not only do these guys have to be "seen" at the WSOP for PR/whoring reasons, but also they don't have to put up with half of the [censored] like standing in line for 4 hours.

Interesting to note that Ivey, who was supposedly only playing the $50K and the ME, seems to be playing every event so far.

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

I saw Negreanu waiting in line the first night I was there (the 31st).

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I saw Negreanu waiting in line the first night I was there (the 31st).

[/ QUOTE ]

This was before it was a 4 hour line, this was when it was at the cage and was a reasonable wait!

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I saw Negreanu waiting in line the first night I was there (the 31st).

[/ QUOTE ]

On the diamond line, or the main line?

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I saw Negreanu waiting in line the first night I was there (the 31st).

[/ QUOTE ]

On the diamond line, or the main line?

[/ QUOTE ]

It was just this cashiers cage, there was no gigantic main line then. I saw lots of recognizable people in it but was only like 20-40 deep at its longest. No way he waits in the absurd 4 hour+ line.

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

I was waiting in the satellite line when the casino employee event started. The dealers were scrambling. Every dealer that I remembered to watch in my satellites scrambled.

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Requiring a scramble is a no brainer. I am the last person that wants to slow down the game (I want speed poker), but having a scramble is critical.

I too would like to know what Harrahs was thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

More hands per hour= more players busting out quicker = less labor cost for dealers + more players playing -EV house games (allegedly) while waiting for their friends to bust out.

That is the argument, but I think it is a bunch of crap.

PLEASE HARRAHS, let me run the WSOP next year. Please????

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

Trying to understand the argument here.

People are complaining that dealers are having trouble making side pots, shuffling, flashing cards, etc.

The same people are concerned that this group of newbies is going to create a slug and allow players to cheat???

You all should get 15 yards for unnecessary roughness.

I will bet that out of the 500+ dealers at WSOP, less than 2% even know WHAT A SLUG IS!!!!!!!!

What a laugh. Scrambling the deck, given the fact that this gruop of dealers couldn't cheat in an UNO game, is a complete and utter waste of time.

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

are you aware that one dealer can be more competent than another?

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

[ QUOTE ]

I will bet that out of the 500+ dealers at WSOP, less than 2% even know WHAT A SLUG IS!!!!!!!!


[/ QUOTE ]

What planet are you living on? I would say over 50% of dealers know what a "slug" is (possibly over 90%).

My bigger concern is shuffle tracking. I believe most people that think a scramble is not needed are largely ignorant with regard to shuffle tracking techniques. Maybe some people think the ability to memorize card strings and incorporate that info into likely card distributions is a skill that should be incorporated into poker, just like any other skill. I do not.

I do agree that the vast majority of dealers are honest and/or incapable of the mechanical proficiency to capitalize on poorly shuffled decks. However, it only takes a fraction of 1% to make it an issue. And the downside from a "poker scandal" could have a huge negative impact on the poker world. (Note: it is unlikely a proficient mechanic would ever be exposed).

I would rather have a scramble, and rest easy knowing the game is devoid of abuse from opportunistic players and rogue dealers alike.

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

Alan - you and I have met once or twice, and I found you to be a complete gentleman.

However, having been in poker for over a decade now, I would be willing to make a healthy wager that less than 5 out of 10 dealers at the WSOP this year have any idea of what a slug is, and the 5 that do could not efficiently manipulate the deck.

The initial assertion that the scramble WILL lead to an unfair advantage is patently false on its face, and the very few mechanics who could do this would 'fix' the deck with a good scramble anyway.

I simply disagree with the topic's initial assertion.

Sorry, if you polled the 500+ dealers and asked them what a slug is, there is no way on God's Earth that 400+ of them could give you a correct answer!

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

I'll start off by saying I'm not a dealer.

What's a slug?

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

Exactly!!

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Trying to understand the argument here.

People are complaining that dealers are having trouble making side pots, shuffling, flashing cards, etc.

The same people are concerned that this group of newbies is going to create a slug and allow players to cheat???

You all should get 15 yards for unnecessary roughness.

I will bet that out of the 500+ dealers at WSOP, less than 2% even know WHAT A SLUG IS!!!!!!!!

What a laugh. Scrambling the deck, given the fact that this gruop of dealers couldn't cheat in an UNO game, is a complete and utter waste of time.

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't take 500 crooked dealers to ruin the integrity of the tourney, just one.

Re: What is Harrah\'s Thinking?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Exactly!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Was a serious question - educate me... What's a slug?