2/4 B&M - AKh vs A86 (all spades); wait for safe turn card?
 

2/4 B&M, 10 handed, loose and passive

No reads.

Preflop (10 players): Hero is UTG with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero raises, UTG+2 calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls

Flop (5 players, 10 SB): A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
SB bets, BB folds, Hero...

I'm having trouble knowing how to play flops of all one suit when I catch a big piece (TPTK for example) without one of the suit. What's the general plan here? Do I simply call the flop, lead/raise a non-spade turn and check/fold a spade turn? Or do I raise the flop, then ditto for the rest?

GcluelessnoobG

Re: 2/4 B&M - AKh vs A86 (all spades); wait for safe turn card?
 

rizaise for vizalue.

Re: 2/4 B&M - AKh vs A86 (all spades); wait for safe turn card?
 

[ QUOTE ]
rizaise for vizalue.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Find out where you are while it's cheap.

If it's checked to you on the turn, bet a nonspade.

I'd probably fold if c/r on the turn or if led into on a spade turn or river.

Re: 2/4 B&M - AKh vs A86 (all spades); wait for safe turn card?
 

Not sure whether a raise or call is in order. Sometimes people in EP like to throw out a bet on a flush board to scare others off. If you call you'll be guessing the rest of the hand. If you raise and SB calls you know he might be bluffing. If he rr you know he's not.

Re: 2/4 B&M - AKh vs A86 (all spades); wait for safe turn card?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Find out where you are while it's cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a terrible reason to raise.

Re: 2/4 B&M - AKh vs A86 (all spades); wait for safe turn card?
 

Phil Hellmuth would disagree.

Re: 2/4 B&M - AKh vs A86 (all spades); wait for safe turn card?
 

Preflop (10 players): Hero is UTG with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero raises, UTG+2 calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls

Flop (5 players, 10 SB): A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
SB bets, BB folds, Hero raises, UTG+2 calls, Button folds, SB calls

Turn (3 players, 8 BB): T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
SB checks, Hero bets...

So I raised the flop cuz that's pretty much what I always do flopping TPTK. At this point I'm pretty much forced into leading the turn because I can't allow free draws. And if not raised, I pretty much have to lead a non-spade river cuz I'll be calling one bet anyways so I might as well lead. The problem is that at a weak passive table someone could easily be calling me down with 2 pairs or a set and not raising me (where I could possibly slow down or perhaps even fold) due to being scared of the flush; still ok?

Gbettingopponentshandsforthemismybusinessandbusine ssisgoodG

Re: 2/4 B&M - AKh vs A86 (all spades); wait for safe turn card?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Find out where you are while it's cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a terrible reason to raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain this to me?

Maybe I misunderstand the concept, but when you say raise for value, are you saying put money in while we are ahead and get opponent to commit money when behind?

If we are raising for value, aren't we getting information as well? Like if SB calls and checks, or if he 3 bets and continues showing aggression...

So am I making the right decision, just for the wrong reasons? Would you agree with the rest of the play in my post?

Re: 2/4 B&M - AKh vs A86 (all spades); wait for safe turn card?
 

i'm not sure what the question is. keep betting until someone does something.

Re: 2/4 B&M - AKh vs A86 (all spades); wait for safe turn card?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Phil Hellmuth would disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol!

phil hellmuth is terrible at LHE and his book is roundly considered to be awful. you really need to read SSH. you will look back at this post in 6 weeks and oh the laugh we will share.

Re: 2/4 B&M - AKh vs A86 (all spades); wait for safe turn card?
 

how is hellmuth terrible at LHE when he played it all through college and was a winning player

Re: 2/4 B&M - AKh vs A86 (all spades); wait for safe turn card?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Find out where you are while it's cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a terrible reason to raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain this to me?

Maybe I misunderstand the concept, but when you say raise for value, are you saying put money in while we are ahead and get opponent to commit money when behind?

[/ QUOTE ]

it isn't so much to put money in while we're ahead as putting money in while we have an equity edge. think about those times you raise with a flush draw -- your 9-high or whatever isn't ahead, but you figure to be best by the river often enough.

but i think you have the basic idea.

[ QUOTE ]

If we are raising for value, aren't we getting information as well? Like if SB calls and checks, or if he 3 bets and continues showing aggression...

[/ QUOTE ]

information is often an ancillary benefit of raising, but it should never[**] be your sole or even primary reason for raising.

there's also a famous old Ed Miller post about raising "to find out where you're at" that you might want to look up.


[**] if you don't like "nevers" in poker, you can read this as "very, very, very rarely"

Re: 2/4 B&M - AKh vs A86 (all spades); wait for safe turn card?
 

[ QUOTE ]

I'm having trouble knowing how to play flops of all one suit when I catch a big piece (TPTK for example) without one of the suit. What's the general plan here? Do I simply call the flop, lead/raise a non-spade turn and check/fold a spade turn? Or do I raise the flop, then ditto for the rest?


[/ QUOTE ]

Grunch***

You must raise this flop. The pot is size-able and there's a player behind you that you do not want in the hand. SB could be donking with anything here, including just flush draw. Your hand is good here much more than 50% of the time, but you would really like BTN to fold.

When I flop TPTK and someone donks me on a monotone flop, my usual line is to assume I have the best hand until I am given further evidence to the contrary. A donkbet is not evidence. A flop 3-bet of your raise is evidence, and a turn c/r is strong evidence.

Re: 2/4 B&M - AKh vs A86 (all spades); wait for safe turn card?
 

[ QUOTE ]
how is hellmuth terrible at LHE when he played it all through college and was a winning player

[/ QUOTE ]

If he plays like his book would indicate he must have been playing in games that were softer than the stars .25/.50. No jopke.

Re: 2/4 B&M - AKh vs A86 (all spades); wait for safe turn card?
 

I would call and see what happens behind you.If people start raising you. You can throw your hand away. Keep calling all the way unless a fourth spade hits or someone starts raising. I mean you should not build the pot on the flop for those who is drawing for a flush.Really you do not like the flop you just wants to get away cheap. Do not escalate the pot!

Re: 2/4 B&M - AKh vs A86 (all spades); wait for safe turn card?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would call and see what happens behind you.If people start raising you. You can throw your hand away. Keep calling all the way unless a fourth spade hits or someone starts raising. I mean you should not build the pot on the flop for those who is drawing for a flush.Really you do not like the flop you just wants to get away cheap. Do not escalate the pot!

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes no sense. If you don't like the flop then just check/fold. All you're doing by calling is keeping everyone else in to catch up to you.

Re: 2/4 B&M - AKh vs A86 (all spades); wait for safe turn card?
 

The pot is too big to check/fold. I mean you have top pair with top kicker.I still think it is best to call on the turn but if a safe card comes on the turn maybe you should raise then depending on the action on the flop of course. If nobody raise on the flop go ahead and raise on the turn.

Re: 2/4 B&M - AKh vs A86 (all spades); wait for safe turn card?
 

i think calling and raising a nonspade turn is fine, but so is raising the flop.

fwiw, since an ace is already out there are fewer "scare" cards(outside of spades) that can come on the turn to kill the action, so that is an advantage to waiting and raising fourth street. if the pot was a bit bigger or smaller i would prefer waiting.

given there's 11sb in the pot, i think we can raise the flop to clear out some of the field and solicit value from the high spades while simultaneously encouraging the smaller/medium ones to fold. if a fourth spade comes this amounts to saving the entire pot on occasion when our flop raise folds out say, the T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], and we get HU with SB who often has a worse ace.

Re: 2/4 B&M - AKh vs A86 (all spades); wait for safe turn card?
 

[ QUOTE ]

given there's 11sb in the pot, i think we can raise the flop to clear out some of the field and solicit value from the high spades while simultaneously encouraging the smaller/medium ones to fold. if a fourth spade comes this amounts to saving the entire pot on occasion when our flop raise folds out say, the T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], and we get HU with SB who often has a worse ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you feel about raising if the table is so loose-passive that it won't chase out a hand like 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]?

Re: 2/4 B&M - AKh vs A86 (all spades); wait for safe turn card?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

given there's 11sb in the pot, i think we can raise the flop to clear out some of the field and solicit value from the high spades while simultaneously encouraging the smaller/medium ones to fold. if a fourth spade comes this amounts to saving the entire pot on occasion when our flop raise folds out say, the T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], and we get HU with SB who often has a worse ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you feel about raising if the table is so loose-passive that it won't chase out a hand like 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]?

[/ QUOTE ]

if they're not folding, they're paying to play.

Re: 2/4 B&M - AKh vs A86 (all spades); wait for safe turn card?
 

You should raise the flop because a safe turn card will not increase our equity by very much when we have 3 opponents. The equity will most likely shift between the other hands. Another trump will certainly hurt it though. As James said, getting this HU would probably be best.

I ran these assuming SB is leading the flop with a big spade. I also left out the the very top of the ranges for the cold callers because those hands are unlikely. This might be a mistake for a live game but in this instance it makes little difference (I ran it). Also, whether SB has a weaker Ace or a big spade does very little to affect our equity. If he had both, our equity would decrease about 9% on the flop.

---
2,786,284 games 89.813 secs 31,023 games/sec

Board: As 8s 6s



Hand 0: 37.12% { Ks9h }
Hand 1: 41.99% { AhKh }
Hand 2: 09.79% { JJ-33, AQs-A2s, K6s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, AQo-A7o, K9o+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 3: 09.69% { JJ-22, AQs-A2s, K6s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, A2o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo }


---
---
2,048,761 games 68.734 secs 29,807 games/sec

Board: As 8s 6s Td
Dead:


Hand 0: 25.69% { Ks9h }
Hand 1: 43.92% { AhKh }
Hand 2: 14.87% { JJ-33, AQs-A2s, K6s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, AQo-A7o, K9o+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 3: 13.68% { JJ-22, AQs-A2s, K6s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, A2o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo }


---
---
3,397,019 games 110.719 secs 30,681 games/sec

Board: As 8s 6s Ts


Hand 0: 96.50% { Ks9h }
Hand 1: 00.000% { AhKh }
Hand 2: 01.84% { JJ-33, AQs-A2s, K6s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, AQo-A7o, K9o+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 3: 01.67% { JJ-22, AQs-A2s, K6s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, AQo-A2o, K9o+, QTo+, JTo }





---
121,480,456 games 52.579 secs 2,310,436 games/sec

Board: As 8s 6s Td
Dead:


Hand 0: 27.28% { Ks9h }
Hand 1: 72.74% { AhKh }


---

Re: 2/4 B&M - AKh vs A86 (all spades); wait for safe turn card?
 

If people will fold on the flop for a raise, raise the flop.

If people will not fold the flop for a raise, just call. And then raise a favorable turn card.

Re: 2/4 B&M - AKh vs A86 (all spades); wait for safe turn card?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Phil Hellmuth would disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

He is a horrible cash player.

Re: 2/4 B&M - AKh vs A86 (all spades); wait for safe turn card?
 

[ QUOTE ]
how is hellmuth terrible at LHE when he played it all through college and was a winning player

[/ QUOTE ]

You talk to anyone who plays with him in cash games and they all say they love to see him sit down at their table.

Re: 2/4 B&M - AKh vs A86 (all spades); wait for safe turn card?
 

I am seeing some advice I don't like in this thread. The board is extremly drawy, the pot is big. Alot of people want to see the turn cheap. We have a very vulnerable hand, and we want people to fold, gutshots, small pairs( hands with 8s, and 6s etc) and small (2,3,4) spadecards. Higher spadecards will not fold. Still we want them to play. If you get threebanged you are probably behind, and can fold easily. You need to be really aggressive in these spots.
[ QUOTE ]

I would call and see what happens behind you.If people start raising you. You can throw your hand away. Keep calling all the way unless a fourth spade hits or someone starts raising. I mean you should not build the pot on the flop for those who is drawing for a flush.Really you do not like the flop you just wants to get away cheap. Do not escalate the pot!
[\quote]

This might apply to no limit, but I don't think this is valid for limit. Bloating the pot should almost never be a concern in limit. It is true that the strongest flushdraw profits when more people enter. If there are several flushdraws, we benefit as well.

Re: 2/4 B&M - AKh vs A86 (all spades); wait for safe turn card?
 

Ok maybe I learned something today.Full-ring.
2 pos A5 Hearts, Me 4 pos A10 clubs, 6 pos 89 diamonds.
call I raise,cold call,another cold call and the big blind call as well. 5 players.
FLOP A82 all spades
bet I just call?! and next person called as well others fold
TURN 8 of spades
It goes check,check,check
RIVER a 3
Again it goes check,check,check
And I lost the pot against trips. If I had raised the flop I would won the pot. I have changed my mind about calling the flop and waiting for a safe turn. RAISE the FLOP!!!

Re: 2/4 B&M - AKh vs A86 (all spades); wait for safe turn card?
 

Preflop (10 players): Hero is UTG with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero raises, UTG+2 calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls

Flop (5 players, 10 SB): A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
SB bets, BB folds, Hero raises, UTG+2 calls, Button folds, SB calls

Turn (3 players, 8 BB): T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+2 calls, SB calls

River (3 players, 11 BB): 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+2 calls, SB calls

UTG+2 wins 14BB pot with a flopped set of 6's. I guess this is one of the cases where I don't lose as much money as I should thanks to UTG+2's very passive play.

At first I wondered if I had played this hand wrong, cuz I know at a passive table a 2 pair or set will simply call down a 3 card flush board; but I don't really think I had any other option than to bet as letting a free card come would be horrible. I think I like the reasons for raising the flop, especially folding out low single spades (which I think most table regulars would do) and making high single spades pay.