2/4: 170bbs deep, 4-bet pot, TPTK... c/f?
 

Opponent's a regular TAG. No notable history. I have been playing pretty straight up TAG, but anyone who has stats on me from when I last played 2/4 a few months ago would have me pegged as a LAGtard, 28/22 or thereabouts.

Do I just check fold this flop? I can't see his range being much broader than QQ+, AK.

Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $2/$4 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

<font color="black">SB: $679.49</font>
BB: $524.00
<font color="black">Hero (UTG): $1,261.14</font>
MP: $211.38
CO: $495.90
BTN: $752.04

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> Hero is dealt A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 Players)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $16.00</font>, MP calls $16.00, CO folds, BTN calls $16.00, <font color="red">SB raises to $72.00</font>, BB folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $210.00</font>, 2 folds, SB calls $138.00

<font color="black">Flop:</font> ($456) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero...</font>

Re: 2/4: 170bbs deep, 4-bet pot, TPTK... c/f?
 

so you 4bet pf and want to cf here? solid.

Re: 2/4: 170bbs deep, 4-bet pot, TPTK... c/f?
 

yeah, okay, I suck. Certainly didn't need anyone to tell me that.

But when I 4bet him preflop he hadn't called yet. When he has called, what do I beat?

Re: 2/4: 170bbs deep, 4-bet pot, TPTK... c/f?
 

You can fold pre if you like.

Re: 2/4: 170bbs deep, 4-bet pot, TPTK... c/f?
 

if you are putting this much of your stack in preflop you have to be willing to put it ai with tptk. think about what you would do with aa or kk here as well as you should play it consistently. i think the only hand that is beating you here is qq.

side note: your hand plays well multi way and you are pretty deep so i like calling here.

Re: 2/4: 170bbs deep, 4-bet pot, TPTK... c/f?
 

[ QUOTE ]
so you 4bet pf and want to cf here? solid.

[/ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't fold here, but quick question: Why does the fact that we 4 bet matter what we do postflop? Couldn't c/f be a decent line if we knew with nearly perfect accuracy his range for just calling the 4 bet was AK, QQ+?

Just realized we are in position so we can't c/f, but it was in the OP.

Re: 2/4: 170bbs deep, 4-bet pot, TPTK... c/f?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so you 4bet pf and want to cf here? solid.

[/ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't fold here, but quick question: Why does the fact that we 4 bet matter what we do postflop? Couldn't c/f be a decent line if we knew with nearly perfect accuracy his range for just calling the 4 bet was AK, QQ+?

[/ QUOTE ]

It could be very solid. It's pretty weak not considering it imo. People just get attached and don't realise how dramatically hand ranges of players can change.

Re: 2/4: 170bbs deep, 4-bet pot, TPTK... c/f?
 

look the point isn't that c/f is bad here, the point is don't [censored] 4bet if you are going to c/f here.

Re: 2/4: 170bbs deep, 4-bet pot, TPTK... c/f?
 

As played check.

I've always been a little confused by xorbie's and others' school of thought. Sure, once we reraise, all that matters is the opponents hand raise and comparing it to the new pot odds?

Re: 2/4: 170bbs deep, 4-bet pot, TPTK... c/f?
 

bet/call all in

Re: 2/4: 170bbs deep, 4-bet pot, TPTK... c/f?
 

[ QUOTE ]
look the point isn't that c/f is bad here, the point is don't [censored] 4bet if you are going to c/f here.

[/ QUOTE ]

there's tons of situations they both could be correct.

Re: 2/4: 170bbs deep, 4-bet pot, TPTK... c/f?
 

I think hero has to c c/f. I don`t like your 4bet here.
We are IP and Villain is a tag, so why give him the chance to get rid of the hand we totally domiate? AJ+ and so on.
After calling his 3bet we can call atleast 2 streats. Ife he bets river again we have a hard desicion.

Re: 2/4: 170bbs deep, 4-bet pot, TPTK... c/f?
 

xorbie, think about what ur saying dude...

Re: 2/4: 170bbs deep, 4-bet pot, TPTK... c/f?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
look the point isn't that c/f is bad here, the point is don't [censored] 4bet if you are going to c/f here.

[/ QUOTE ]

there's tons of situations they both could be correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that, in this case, both are correct (or at least more correct than any alternatives given the info posted).

Pre-flop, Hero makes a standard raise from UTG and is called by MP and BTN making for a $54 pot, i.e. tasty squeeze opportunity for SB. With this point in mind, hero has good reason to believe that his hand is ahead SB's range.

Once SB 3-bets, hero can either raise (as played), fold (crazy-weak), or call.

IMO, calling here is not optimal as it will likely create one of two tough situations:

Either

1. Both MP and BTN will also call (as hero has improved their odds) and hero is forced to play a 4-way, $290 pot, OOP with very little info with which to range MP, and even less for BTN.

OR

2. Either MP or BTN go for the re-squeeze.

By 4-betting pre-flop, Hero reps a very big hand and likely folds all but super-premium hands, i.e QQ+,AK. Given the effective stacks, IMO at these limits villain will only re-shove with AA and maybe KK, and if that happens, I think a fold is good. As played, i think hero is correct in assuming that villain's call indicates the very narrow post-flop range of QQ, AK, and maybe KK.

With this range in mind, on that flop hero is playing for a tie at best(barring runner-runner miracles). Thus, c/f would seem to be the best play, IMHO.

Re: 2/4: 170bbs deep, 4-bet pot, TPTK... c/f?
 

[ QUOTE ]
xorbie, think about what ur saying dude...

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 2/4: 170bbs deep, 4-bet pot, TPTK... c/f?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don`t like your 4bet here.
We are IP and Villain is a tag, so why give him the chance to get rid of the hand we totally dominate?

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Because there are two other players in the pot, both of whom have position on us.

2. Because there is already 31bbs in the pot. Lets not get greedy.

Re: 2/4: 170bbs deep, 4-bet pot, TPTK... c/f?
 

Xorbie is off..Im much closer with OP, I mean when we 4bet preflop how did we know he wouldn't fold fast. Now that we got here I'm betting...two Js are possible, so is AQs, and we chop with AK. We lose to AA/QQ (and the very rare KK).

Already putting in $210 I think our hand is good enough to put it in.

Re: 2/4: 170bbs deep, 4-bet pot, TPTK... c/f?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think hero has to c c/f. I don`t like your 4bet here.
We are IP and Villain is a tag, so why give him the chance to get rid of the hand we totally domiate? AJ+ and so on.
After calling his 3bet we can call atleast 2 streats. Ife he bets river again we have a hard desicion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bit embarrassing that I misrepresented my position in the OP. I was in a rush.

Anyway, facing what could very likely be a squeeze, to me a 4 bet seems pretty straightfoward here, particularly with two players to act behind. Calling, for one thing, means that junk squeezing hands can outflop me, and higher aces can bluff me on dry boards (maybe, my position is obviously beneficial in this regard). It also means that the two flat callers behind can call a bunch of holdings, particularly pocket pairs, and have position on me after the flop. I just don't want to play AK oop in a huge multiway pot. After my last session I'm resigned to once again moving down in stakes, so I'm happy to defer to you guys as the authority, but calling seems really bad to me here with two players to act behind.

As I say, though, once I'm called, by a player OOP no less, who is deep but not getting value to call for a set, it just seems to me his hand is going to be QQ+, AK more than 90% of the time.

I read something by aba recently talking about having to get it in more lightly the more that's been invested preflop. I think he discusses it in relation to a hand where he 4 bets 89 against PA, flops top pair, then gets it in. But this situation feels different. Unless villain is getting way out of line, and playing badly, IMO, his range absolutely crushes me. If QQ+, AK is an accurate range, the question becomes am I splitting the pot often enough that I have to get it in, because the rest of the time I'm absolutely smoked.

My reasoning, anyhow.

Re: 2/4: 170bbs deep, 4-bet pot, TPTK... c/f?
 

im just going to provide a few statistics from poker stove, i won't go into why i dont like calling etc that's already been covered.

pre flop against a range of QQ+ AK, AK has nice equity (60-40). abit of a truism and im sure you're all well aware of this. so by isolating yourself against the villian's tightest of ranges youre not really making a mistake by four betting (considering he will only have a pot sized bet left in his stack, meaning no play. incidentally you have 30 percent equity on blank flops against this range, so if he were to donk bet shove all hands on a 3 5 9r board you have very close to the odds you need for a call). needless to say getting him to fold preflop obviously gets you some value.


post flop however with the board given(K Q 4), assuming he'll call with all hands of the range we have assigned to him(QQ+ AK), you have below odds to get it all in on the flop. 25 percent equity and getting less than 2 to 1. if he folds AK believing he's looking poor against your range however, you can shove i assume.

anyone feel free to correct me.

Re: 2/4: 170bbs deep, 4-bet pot, TPTK... c/f?
 

this is the easiest shove ive ever seen

Re: 2/4: 170bbs deep, 4-bet pot, TPTK... c/f?
 

[ QUOTE ]
this is the easiest shove ive ever seen

[/ QUOTE ]

OK champ, if this is the easiest shove you've ever seen (a $480 shove into a $456 pot, for the record), what hands have you got in villain's range that hero is beating with that flop?

Re: 2/4: 170bbs deep, 4-bet pot, TPTK... c/f?
 

c/c a shove

Re: 2/4: 170bbs deep, 4-bet pot, TPTK... c/f?
 

If you're going to c/f this board just fold preflop, you guys are a bunch of nits

Re: 2/4: 170bbs deep, 4-bet pot, TPTK... c/f?
 

he 4bet pf to a sb squeeze, he has tptk and has enough for one psb, and he is checked to. you simply can never fold. you can never bet/fold obv, so any bet will be pot committing. also he's in position so i'm not sure where the c/f c/c talk comes from.

Re: 2/4: 170bbs deep, 4-bet pot, TPTK... c/f?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Xorbie is off..Im much closer with OP, I mean when we 4bet preflop how did we know he wouldn't fold fast. Now that we got here I'm betting...two Js are possible, so is AQs, and we chop with AK. We lose to AA/QQ (and the very rare KK).

Already putting in $210 I think our hand is good enough to put it in.

[/ QUOTE ]

so i'm off and yet you suggest sticking it in?

Re: 2/4: 170bbs deep, 4-bet pot, TPTK... c/f?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
xorbie, think about what ur saying dude...

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

if you think you are getting called by QQ+, AK then you are bluffing. and bluffing w/ AK 150bb deep is bad, because this is 2/4 and TAG guys aren't going to squeeze here against an UTG raiser and TWO guys who are both very deep without a pretty good hand or an occasional bluff.

Re: 2/4: 170bbs deep, 4-bet pot, TPTK... c/f?
 

I think there are a ton of situations where I could see 4-betting preflop and then c/fing TPTK flops. If your opponent has a wide 3-betting range but rarely responds to your 4-bets is a good example.

At the same time the overall point Xorbie makes in this thread is good. DONT 4-bet here and not have a postflop plan! The OP doesnt really have any idea what this guys range is in a 4-bet pot and thus is in trouble.

I dont think sticking it in on the flop ever gets called by worse. I would check and see what he decided on the turn. If he checked again I would assume he didnt have anything on this board texture so I would definitely shove for value. A check behind here can induce action from a weaker hand and allow us to value bet him on later streets.

Re: 2/4: 170bbs deep, 4-bet pot, TPTK... c/f?
 

Villain MUST think that flop hit you hard. If he bets, he's rarely bluffing.