The Well: youtalkfunny
 

A stranger is being shown around a village that he has just become part of. He is shown a well and his guide says "On any day except Wednesday, you can shout any question down that well, and you'll be told the answer" .

The stranger shouts down several questions, and all are answered. The stranger is impressed, and after thinking a minute he shouts down: "Why not on Wednesday?" and the voice from in the well shouts back "Because on Wednesday, it’s your day in the well".




I'm pleased to introduce youtalkfunny who has volunteered to take a turn in the well.

For those who do not know him, youtalkfunny is a former Las Vegas casino sportsbook employee who has participated on 2+2 for quite some time. Its an honor to have him and please treat him - as is required with all Well participants except Thremp - with all due respect.

If you're interested in taking a turn in The Well, see this thread.

====

<ul type="square">
Previous turns in The Well: [*] Performify - 02/02/07[*] B00T - 02/07/07[*] Thremp - 02/14/07[*] NajdorfDefense - 02/21/07[*] King Yao - 05/23/07[*] YouTalkFunny - 05/30/07[/list]

Re: The Well: youtalkfunny
 

Note - Just because YTF's Well is open doesn't necessarily mean King Yao (or actually any of the previous Well occupants) is closed. Most people, myself included, have been happy to answer questions posed at a later time.

I'm not going to be around much tomorrow but wanted to get this moving on schedule, so I started the thread and dropped YTF a PM to announce it. I'm not sure how long he'll take to see it, so don't be frustrated if your first questions go unanswered for a time...

-P

Re: The Well: youtalkfunny
 

I was flattered by the invitation to climb into the well, and honored to be among the Who's Who of Sports Betting posters who have preceded me in this endeavor.

Unlike most (or all) of the previous Well threads, I won't be able to help you pick winners, or figure ROI's, or anything of the sort.

My background in this field is a little different from the prior Well occupants: I was a bookmaker in Las Vegas for most of the '90s (almost exclusive at the Imperial Palace, when they were making a name for themselves with all their proposition bets), and I put in a year offshore in 2001-2002.

So I can answer questions from a bookmaking standpoint, and will defer any sports betting questions to those who could be of more assistance.

Again, thanks to Performity for setting this up, and to all the posters who asked me to appear here.

Fire away.

Re: The Well: youtalkfunny
 

I am estatic for this one.

The line is -250 that this will be the best thread EVER in SB.

Re: The Well: youtalkfunny
 

I'm looking for more great anecdotes involving weird lines, super bowl betting hysteria, whatever you can fling at me.

Re: The Well: youtalkfunny
 

My father used to tell me the same anecdotes over and over again. He'd be three lines into one I've heard 100 times, and instead of listening to him, I'd be thinking to myself, "How can he NOT KNOW that I've already heard this story 100 times???"

Now I do the same thing. I hope you can all be patient with me if I post a story that I've already posted in a previous thread. Just remind yourself that there may be readers just tuning in, who haven't heard it that one yet.

You mentioned "Weird Lines" and "Super Bowl" in the same sentence, which immediately brought the "Slash" prop to mind, so I may as well start with one that I'm almost certain that I've already posted it before:

SuperBowl XXX, Switzer's Cowboy's against Cowher's Steelers, at Sun Devil Stadium. It wasn't supposed to be much of a game--Dallas was favored by two touchdowns--but we struck gold with a prop that captured the attention of the sports betting public:

Will Kordell Stewart have a rush attempt, a pass attempt, AND a reception?
(He must do all three to satisfy the "Yes")

YES +250
NO -300

Of course, we thought the "No" should have been about -1000, but history has shown us that no matter what prop we dream up, the public will pile on the "Yes" on Yes/No props, and the "Over" on Over/Unders, so we shaded this one accordingly.

We put up the Slash Trifecta, expecting to laugh at anyone dumb enough to take +250 on the "Yes".

The media thought this was the most creative prop they'd seen for a while, and every broadcast or article mentioned the IP's "Slash" prop. It brought a LOT of people to our property...

...and they all wanted to bet "Yes". The price wasn't an issue. They took +250. Lowering it to +200 didn't slow them down. Soon it was +160...+120...-110...-130...

...-180...-240...-280...-320...-400...

So instead of laughing at the suckers who took the +250, we were marveling that the suckers would happily lay -400 on the same prop.

The Wiseguys eventually came in to buy back some of the "No", but we weren't too eager to share it all with them. We gave them a little, but tried to keep most of the public's stupidity to ourselves. (This paragraph illustrates that the common question, "Do bookies always strive to balance their action?", should be answered, "Not always.")

In the seven years I worked at the IP, this prop was easily the biggest decision we ever had on a prop. We had a $500 max bet, but we still had a Monday Night Football-sized decision on this prop. Besides horse matchups offered by utter incompetents, I can't think of any bet ever that moved from +250 to -400. Please believe me, that +250 was not arrived at by incompetents.

Once the game started, we were pretty balanced on the sides and totals, so we pretty much just sweated the props. Of course, the Kordell Stewart prop was on the top of this list.

We knew the toughest thing the Yes bettors had to fade was the reception. Kordell ran and threw more than he caught--and even if they did throw to him, they had to complete the pass to help the Yes bettors.

Naturally, he caught a pass very early on. It wasn't a big play in Arizona, but it was a big play in Las Vegas. No matter where you were in the building at that moment, you could hear the cheering.

He also got a run attempt pretty early, as well, leaving "pass attempt" as the final hurdle. This didn't have to be a completion, it just had to be a forward pass attempt.

Midway threw the third quarter, O'Donnell pitched to Stewart, who ran a sweep to the right, except he didn't tuck the ball away.

"Uh oh, here it comes..."

Sure enough, he's got the ball cocked by his ear, and he's looking to throw...

The crowd in the sports book is going absolutely bananas. "THROW IT! THROOOOOW IT!!!" These people don't care if he throws an interception that costs his team the Super Bowl, they just want to win their bet.

Nobody's open. Kordell is holding it, holding it, still rolling right, holding it, thinking about tucking it away, almost to the sidelines...

"THROW IT!!!"

Kordell tucks it in , and steps out of bounds for no gain on the play.

"AAAAAWWWWWWWW!"

It was the wildest I've ever seen a crowd in a sports book.

That was pretty much the last we saw of Kordell that day. Put a circle around the "No". The bookies win this one.

Re: The Well: youtalkfunny
 

[ QUOTE ]
I can't think of any bet ever that moved from +250 to -400.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait, I just thought of one.

That year Tiger Woods won the Masters by about 22 strokes, we got requests to put up odds on Tiger winning the Grand Slam that year. The Masters is the first event, so the bet is that he will win the British Open, US Open, and PGA Championship that year.

Nobody in the history of golf had ever done it, so we didn't expect it would happen this time, either. We put up 100-1, a ridiculously low number that only the squarest of the square would take. Remember, back then, the favorite in a golf tournament would be about 10-1, so taking 100-1 on a three-tourney parlay was about the dumbest thing you could do.

Or so we thought. We would soon learn that there were dumber things you could do.

We took a few max bets, but didn't lower the odds out of sheer guilt. We're already robbing people at this price, we don't need to lower these odds.

But they wouldn't stop betting it! They took 80-1, 70-1, 50-1, 40-1, 30-1, 20-1...

At this point, every time we moved the number, we'd think, "That ought to put a stop to this."

But it didn't. They took 15-1, 10-1, 8-1...

By this time, Tiger was about 5-1 to win the US Open, but nobody would bet that--they'd rather take 8-1 that he'd win THREE tournaments!

We had a $100 max bet on this prop, and our liability soared to seven figures. We never risked seven figures on a freaking Super Bowl, let alone a throw-in golf prop.

By the way, 8-1 didn't stop them. We kept lowering it, they kept betting it, and believe it or not, this prop closed at 2-1. That is not a typo. AND THEY'D STILL BET IT!

TOURIST: We're staying at the Excalibur, and a guy over there said you guys had a bet on Tiger Woods to win the Grand Slam. Do you have that?

ME: Yes, we do, but you should know that the odds have been bet down to 2-1.

TOURIST: Really? Oh well. Gimme Tiger to win the Grand Slam for $100.

HE WAS 2-1 TO WIN THE US OPEN, BUT THIS GUY WANTS 2-1 ON THE GRAND SLAM.

Needless to say, Tiger didn't come close to winning any Grand Slam that year. But we had our resumes updated, just in case.

Re: The Well: youtalkfunny
 

I think you bring a great point-of-view, I'm looking forward to the questions/answers. Here's a question:

From the book's side, were you happy, sad or indifferent when a sharp bettor came in to bet on a prop or side? A couple of different examples:

A. IP thinks fair value in a prop is -1000 on the "No" but posts a line of +250 on "Yes" and -400 on "No". A sharp bettor comes in and pops it for the max at -400. Happy, sad or indifferent?

B. IP thinks fair line is even money. They make it -115 / -115. A known sharp player comes in and bets the Yes at -115. IP moves the line to -130 / +100. Two minutes later, a different known sharp player that IP thinks is not related to the first comes in and bets the max on the Yes at -130. Happy, sad or indifferent.

C. IP thinks the fair line should be -110 on the "yes", but they've gotten so much action on it from squares that they've moved the line to -180 / +150. A sharp player comes in and bets No +150. Happy, sad or indifferent?

Re: The Well: youtalkfunny
 

It's great seeing you in The Well. Just a few questions:

1) How did you get into the bookmaking business?

2) Which off-shore sites have you worked at?

3) How does working at the IP differ from working at off-shore sites?

4) Why did you leave?

5) What are you doing now?

Re: The Well: youtalkfunny
 

Random ?s:

What's the largest bet you booked at IP? The largest you paid out? The best bet? The worst bet (might be Tiger to win the Slam at 2-1 per above).

Did you ever cut off action from a sharp player? If so, was it a regular occurrence or do books usually welcome all comers? Can you provide any detail? I absolutely abused an errant line for UFC 71 and I had the feeling that the book was ready to ask for ID and then bounce me... no one I'd talked to had heard of anyone bounced from a vegas book for betting an available line but it made me wonder.

Would you classify the IP "Dealertainers" as the worst tragedy to ever befall mankind or merely as the greatest abomination of our lifetime?

Favorite book? Movie? Band/artist?

Re: The Well: youtalkfunny
 

What are the odds of me getting a job in the sports book industry in Las Vegas when I retire at 55 (5 years from now)? Qualifications: AA in computer programming and a BS in accounting with a minor in business administration; have been involved with sports gambling since I was 15 so I am very familiar with the customer side of the counter; have owned and operated a small (10 employees) bar and grill for the past 21 years. Would there be a spot for an old guy like me?

Do you know Sonny Palermo?

Is there a worse buffet in Vegas than the IP's?

Thanks for taking the time to do this.

Re: The Well: youtalkfunny
 

How old are you?

Did you ever see The Runner with John Goodman? Is anything in that flick accurate at all?

How come no sites are able to duplicate what Pinnacle has done?

This goes along with the above question, how are square sites so square? Can't they employ 2 people for $200k a year and save that much in a month?

Re: The Well: youtalkfunny
 

After I typed this post, I was reminded of a scene I saw recently on an old "The West Wing" episode, where President Bartlet was struggling to come up with a clever toast to give at his wife's birthday party:

CHARLIE: Do you love her?

BARTLET: Very much.

CHARLIE: Then that's that.

BARTLET: No. You have to understand, in my family, if someone uses one word when they could have used ten, they're just not trying.

So forgive my less-than-concise answers in this thread.

On we go:


[ QUOTE ]
From the book's side, were you happy, sad or indifferent when a sharp bettor came in to bet on a prop or side?

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to remember that the IP was a small book. I don't mean it's in a small room, I mean the max bets were very small. We had a $500 max on our props, match-ups, and other "other" bets. We put a 30-cent line on them, jumping to 40-cents when it rose to -180/+140.

The Sharps knew they had to fade a long, long walk to get to our sports book, and when they got there, they didn't expect to find much value.

And our Ace in the hole was Ed Salmons, the sports book manager (currently at the LV Hilton). His opinion went into just about every line that went up on our board, and he's one tough SOB to try beat. Ask around the Strip who the sharpest linesmakers in town are, and if Ed's name isn't on the short list, then you're not asking the most knowledgeable people.

Beating Ed is tough; beating a 30-cent line is tough. When those two join forces, you've got a very uphill fight on your hands. Because of this, and our low limits, the sharps pretty much stayed away. Which was fine by us. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Our goal, as a sportsbook, was not so much "to make money". That was certainly a secondary goal, but our primary goal was "to attract people on to the property, and into the casino". Connie Ross was in charge of sales and marketing back then, and she focused her efforts on promoting the unique attractions offered by the IP: the antique car collection, and a sports book that offered unique bets. As I mentioned above, we would get players every day who would tell us, "I'm staying at the Sahara, and a guy over there said you might have a bet that I'm looking for..." People knew that if you wanted a prop, the IP was the place to go.

When your primary goal is not "to make money", then you don't have to battle the sharps if you don't want to. And we didn't want to. Why would we? Tourists playing parlay cards was enough to handle the "to make money" aspect of our jobs. The rest of the operation was geared to attract players to the property--and I certainly don't mean players who turn up their noses to -EV table games and slot machines.

Still, a Sharpie would come in from time to time, especially when the Super Bowl props were up. You asked if that made us feel good, bad, or indifferent. We never felt bad--we had the 30-cent cushion and Ed on our side. We usually felt indifferent.

The times we felt good was when we knew the sharp was playing a scalp. This means somebody else is offering the same prop, at a much different price. Now, instead of banging heads with the Sharp on this bet, he has turned us against the other book, and we are banging heads with the guy who offered the wacky price. Whenever that happened, we liked our chances--we felt confident that our number was sharper than theirs.

[ QUOTE ]
A couple of different examples:

A. IP thinks fair value in a prop is -1000 on the "No" but posts a line of +250 on "Yes" and -400 on "No". A sharp bettor comes in and pops it for the max at -400. Happy, sad or indifferent?

[/ QUOTE ]

That "Slash Prop" phenomenon was very unique. We would almost never shade a line that much before taking the first bet on it. And if we did, even the squares could see the value was gone, and lay off it for the most part.

I was surprised the sharps didn't come in and start laying the -400 right away on that one. They waited, and waited, and waited, and then started to take some back the day before the game. Now, instead of laying a big price, they were getting better than even money.

In this unique case, if I recall correctly, we'd resist the urge to move line after a Sharp took it for the limit. Usually, that was like giving the Sharp the green light to whack it again if he liked. But in this case, we made it clear to the Sharp that $500 was all he was getting--we had much the best of this one, and we weren't looking for partners to share this wealth.

I'm sure that, for many of you, such a stance from a bookmaker would spark the thought, "Then I'll just find a beard to bet it again for me." Believe it or not, this wasn't a problem for us. We didn't treat the Sharps with disdain and disrespect, the way pit personnel treat card counters. We were always polite and respectful, and we got respect in return. If we told a Sharp, "We'll let you bet this under the following conditions...", they went along. Mostly because they knew that trying to screw us meant permanently losing an out; but partly because they respected the way we treated them, as well as the job we had to do.

[ QUOTE ]
B. IP thinks fair line is even money. They make it -115 / -115. A known sharp player comes in and bets the Yes at -115. IP moves the line to -130 / +100. Two minutes later, a different known sharp player that IP thinks is not related to the first comes in and bets the max on the Yes at -130. Happy, sad or indifferent.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a much more common scenario than Example A above.

First, I should note that after we moved the line from -115 to -130 (actually, -135 or -140 would be the more likely move, depending on the bettor and the sport), the original bettor was welcome to bet it again. We don't need a second, unrelated bettor for this example. Again, that Slash example where we'd discourage someone from betting it twice was a very unique, specific situation. It was common to see someone bet a prop, then stay at the window and see how far we'd move the line, in case he wanted to bet it again. Now you see why we'd move it more than 15 cents.

This was all standard, so "good" would be the answer. I was going to go with "indifferent", but it was frustrating to put work into props that nobody would bet, so at least this prop was getting some action, and that made us feel good.

[ QUOTE ]
C. IP thinks the fair line should be -110 on the "yes", but they've gotten so much action on it from squares that they've moved the line to -180 / +150. A sharp player comes in and bets No +150. Happy, sad or indifferent?

[/ QUOTE ]

Usually, happy that our books were being balanced.

There are rare situations where our EV was so high, we didn't want to trade it in for balance, and if a Sharp bought some back, we'd be disappointed.

A great example of this was the NFL prop:

Will either team score in the last 2 minutes of the first half?
YES -210
NO +170

The squares loved the "No" on this one. We knew the "Yes" was the prohibitive favorite, so we'd give the squares all the +170 they wanted. If a Sharp came in and laid the -210, we'd feel disappointment.

Again, this was a rare, specific exception. For the most part, we wanted to balance our books, and let the parlay cards pay our rent.

Re: The Well: youtalkfunny
 

Thanks for the response! Its close to what I expected, but its always nice to hear from the other side of the counter as opposed to making assumptions.

I've always enjoyed betting props at the IP and now at the Hilton (limits are 2K on SB props!). It always felt like a professional atmosphere which is a nice change of pace compared to some other books. They also have such a large selection of props during the Super Bowl, that even though most of them were right on, there were always a few that had value, provided you got there early enough before other sharps hit the lines.

Re: The Well: youtalkfunny
 

Thanks for doing this youtalkfunny.

In which sports and events did you find the books had the best winrates? Not just in terms of gross profits (I'd be shocked if NFL wasn't the clear winner in this regard) but in terms EV per bet. Which sports were the worst? Did this differ at all from B&amp;M and online?

On a totally different note, aside from the Super Bowl, heavyweight title bouts, and March Madness, what sports-betting events would specifically draw lots of tourists to Vegas.

Re: The Well: youtalkfunny
 

[ QUOTE ]
1) How did you get into the bookmaking business?

[/ QUOTE ]

SHORT VERSION: I replied to an ad in the paper, looking for ticket writers. I put in some years as a ticket writer, and was finally rewarded with a promotion to supervisor.

LONG VERSION (skip it if you like): When I was discharged from the army, I didn't want to move back home. There were no jobs back home--that's why I joined the army!

When the army made it clear I was no longer welcome, I knew I'd have to go somewhere there were jobs.

I saw a news report on tv that The Dunes was going to be imploded, and replaced with a new hotel/casino. There was nothing wrong with The Dunes. It was just old, and was being torn down to be replaced by the same thing, only newer.

It blew me away that somebody would just throw away a perfectly good hotel. I thought, "There must be jobs out there." So I bought a one-way bus ticket to Las Vegas.

I spent my first days sightseeing, walking through the various casinos for the first time. I saw lots of employees doing jobs that I thought I could do, such as porter or front desk. But my jaw dropped when I saw the sports book. Guys were sitting on stools, surrounded by televised sports. They weren't doing anything! They were laughing and joking and watching seven baseball games, and every few minutes, taking a break from that to write a ticket.

I didn't plan on being picky in my upcoming job search, but I knew that "race/sports book" would be at the top of my Wish List.

That Sunday, I bought the RJ, and perused the jobs listings. I made a list of all the Seven-Elevens I'd be visiting, when I was shocked to see a listing for "race/sports book ticket writers" at The Poker Palace.

I had never heard of The Poker Palace. Their address was in the ad. I bought a map, and learned that there was a North Las Vegas, a place the tourists never go.

I took the bus out to the Poker Palace early Monday morning, and filled out an application. HR sent me and my app to the book, to interview with the race/sports book manager.

HIM: You don't really want to work here, do you?

ME: I really want to work here. I know a lot about sports. My Dad trains thoroughbreds, so I already know all about horse betting. I had a Top Secret security clearance in the army, so you can expect that I won't be trying to steal any money...

HIM: I can only pay you minimum wage.

ME: I'll take less, if that will get me the job.

That got his eyebrows to arch. Running a store that pays minimum wage, he wasn't used to enthusiasm.

I started right away. I soon learned that ticket writers on the Strip make more than minimum wage, so I planned to go look for one of those jobs, once I got some experience and learned how to actually write tickets. I didn't know that most books didn't require any experience for the job.

After six months, I was ready to move on, when I was offered a promotion to Supervisor (the supervisors didn't stick around for long, either). I saw this as a stellar opportunity to learn about bookmaking, instead of just ticket writing, so I agreed. I went out and bought Roxy's book on race/sports book management, and began my education in earnest.

A few months later, I had once again reached the point where I thought that I had learned all they had to teach me, and I was ready to start looking for a better-paying job, when they offered me the position of race/sports book manager. I'd been there less than a year, and I had worked my way up from entry-level to running my own book. My ego was all over that offer, and I took the job--for less money than a lot of ticket writers around town were making at that time.

That didn't last long. Being the top guy, there was nobody left to learn anything from. The manager who had hired me had since got a job writing tickets at the IP, and when they needed some writers, he put in a good word for me. I left the Poker Palace to go write tickets at the IP.

Spoiled by my rapid rise through the ranks at the Poker Palace, I was frustrated that it took a few years before I was up for a promotion at the IP. I was even more frustrated when I was passed over the first time, a decision that infuriated me then, but I understand it perfectly now--I had a big mouth. Once I learned to mellow out a little, I was given the next supervisor slot to become available.

[ QUOTE ]
2) Which off-shore sites have you worked at?

[/ QUOTE ]

I worked at a small book that started up in 2001, and went belly-up in 2002.

Forgive me if I dodge specific questions about that business failing, but my posting about the experience cost me a very dear friendship, and I'm not eager to open old wounds.

[ QUOTE ]
3) How does working at the IP differ from working at off-shore sites?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's so different, you almost can't compare the two.

The biggest difference is that offshore, if you have a bad day, you don't have 3000 slot machines and 50 table games to pick up the slack. You have to win, win, win, or you're dead. You're not attached to a 2500-room hotel full of suckers who want to fade a 30% parlay card.

The players who visit your site are, by definition, more sophisticated than the suckers strolling the Strip. Just the fact that they've HEARD OF your web site indicates that they have a clue.

[ QUOTE ]
4) Why did you leave?

[/ QUOTE ]

I got married and had kids. Sitting on a stool and watching games on tv is a lot of fun, but it's not the highest-paying job in the world.

They don't have to offer a lot of money, because there's a long line of guys who would do it for very little. Before I had kids, it was common for me to show for work two hours early, and stay two hours late, off the clock. It was just a fun place to hang out.

[ QUOTE ]
5) What are you doing now?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a poker dealer in Tunica. I've been doing that since 2000, except for that one year offshore.

I originally turned down the offer to to go offshore, but they offered me a ton of money, so I went. When the company performed below expectations, there was no ton of money to be had, so I came back home and got my old job back.

Re: The Well: youtalkfunny
 

[ QUOTE ]
What's the largest bet you booked at IP? The largest you paid out? The best bet? The worst bet (might be Tiger to win the Slam at 2-1 per above).

[/ QUOTE ]

Largest booked: That Steelers/Cowboys Super Bowl. We were WAY heavy with Steelers ML bets. We kept lowering the price, but nobody would buy it back. We had a 14-point favorite at -400, and no takers. Finally, a Sharp came in on Game Day, and asked if we wanted more than the limit. Ed and Jay decided to give him a lot more, and he laid $20k to win $5k.

Largest paid out: Every now and then, one of those parlay cards would hit, and you'd have to pay out ten dimes or so.

Disappointed with those answers? Like I said the IP was a small book.

Best bet: I don't know how I would determine that. I guess any time we deliberately sought unbalanced action, and somebody was sharp enough to see that and get on our side of it, that would have to be it.

Worst bet: This one is easy. The original Dream Team (Bird, Magic, Jordan, Barkley, etc) to win the Gold Medal at Barcelona opened at -9900, or 1-to-99.

One of the first bets we took on it was from a tourist who laid $5 to win $.05...and then he asked for instructions to collect by mail! He wasn't going to win enough to pay for the stamp!

[ QUOTE ]
Did you ever cut off action from a sharp player? If so, was it a regular occurrence or do books usually welcome all comers? Can you provide any detail? I absolutely abused an errant line for UFC 71 and I had the feeling that the book was ready to ask for ID and then bounce me... no one I'd talked to had heard of anyone bounced from a vegas book for betting an available line but it made me wonder.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think the IP was a small book, you should see The Poker Palace. The max bet on NFL sides was $300. That is not a typo. The max bet on baseball totals was $50.

One of the supervisors training me once told a player who was picking off our weak numbers for max bets, "My job is find anyone who wants to bet real money, and throw them out of here. If you want to play parlay cards, we'll welcome your action."

The IP wasn't as drastic, but we made it clear with our limits that Sharp play was not welcome. We didn't hesitate to tell anybody, "You're too tough for us." Again, we did it professionally and respectfully, so nobody ever got upset about it.

I don't think any book "Welcomes all comers". That book I worked offshore did, and they were out of business in less than a year. DUCY?

[ QUOTE ]
Would you classify the IP "Dealertainers" as the worst tragedy to ever befall mankind or merely as the greatest abomination of our lifetime?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was long gone before that idea came to fruition, so I cannot comment intelligently.

[ QUOTE ]
Favorite book? Movie? Band/artist?

[/ QUOTE ]

Book: Shogun, James Clavell (it's like The Sopranos in 16th-century Japan, with a little Back to the Future culture shock thrown in)

Movie: Reservoir Dogs. Totally changed Hollywood.

Band/Artist: After 30 years of calling myself a Billy Joel fan, I'm finally tired of him, probably because he hasn't released new stuff since the mid-80's.

I've always like Roxette, even though the list of their flaws (they know about three chords; English is not their native language, and their lyrics are incredibly bad) far outweighs the list of their virtues. But they keep coming up with simple, pleasing melodies. There's something almost Beatles-esque about the simplicity of it, and that's a good thing.

I'm really in a Rat Pack phase now. One of my Sirius buttons is set to the Sinatra channel, and I'm eating up all the Dean and Sammy I can get my hands on. Those guys could bring it!

Re: The Well: youtalkfunny
 

[ QUOTE ]
What are the odds of me getting a job in the sports book industry in Las Vegas when I retire at 55 (5 years from now)? Qualifications: AA in computer programming and a BS in accounting with a minor in business administration; have been involved with sports gambling since I was 15 so I am very familiar with the customer side of the counter; have owned and operated a small (10 employees) bar and grill for the past 21 years. Would there be a spot for an old guy like me?

[/ QUOTE ]

Visit any sportsbook. Everyone who writes tickets is either very young, or very old. It's a low-paying job.

If you want to start out as a supervisor (one who approves bets and moves lines), forget it. The only qualification for that is experience as a bookmaker at another legally licensed casino. Other than that, you put your time in as a ticket writer. I had to put in FIVE YEARS at the IP before being promoted, because there was almost no turnover among the supervisors. My experience as a supervisor at the Poker Palace meant nothing to them.

Your only chance is to become friends with the boss. Golf with him. Golf buddies are the only guys I know who ever skipped ticket writing and went right into bookmaking--and that almost never happens.

[ QUOTE ]
Do you know Sonny Palermo?

[/ QUOTE ]

Know him? I trained him! I taught him everything he knows.

Actually, Ed taught him most of what he knows about bookmaking. But when I gave my notice that I was quitting to move to Mississippi, Sonny was promoted from ticket writer to replace me, and I spent my last two weeks teaching him all the technical/paperwork aspect of the job.

From the day he joined us, he was spending all his time in the office with Ed, Jeff, Jackson, Kelly, and myself, trying to learn all he could about the business.

Shortly after I left, Jay and Ed left to take over the Hilton book, Jackson left the business to pursue other interests, Jeff had already left to start up the book at The Palms, and KD left to run the book at Green Valley Ranch. Sonny got promoted to run the sportsbook, and I was kicking myself, wondering if that would've been me if I had stayed.

Given his prior experience in business, and my prior experience driving a cab, he probably would've got the bump any way. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

He's a great guy, and I'm proud to able to call him a friend.

[ QUOTE ]
Is there a worse buffet in Vegas than the IP's?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, the line is almost always short.

Re: The Well: youtalkfunny
 

[ QUOTE ]
4) Why did you leave?
I got married and had kids. Sitting on a stool and watching games on tv is a lot of fun, but it's not the highest-paying job in the world.

They don't have to offer a lot of money, because there's a long line of guys who would do it for very little. Before I had kids, it was common for me to show for work two hours early, and stay two hours late, off the clock. It was just a fun place to hang out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Poker dealers make more than a sportsbook supervisor? I worked for 4 years at an OTB in the midwest. Punching tickets and as a floor supervisor. I have a degree from UNLV in hotel management with casino op's emphasis. Do I still need to start off as ticket writer with these qualifications since it's all about "who ya know"?

Re: The Well: youtalkfunny
 

[ QUOTE ]

I've always like Roxette, even though the list of their flaws (they know about three chords; English is not their native language, and their lyrics are incredibly bad) far outweighs the list of their virtues. But they keep coming up with simple, pleasing melodies. There's something almost Beatles-esque about the simplicity of it, and that's a good thing.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hahaha! You should talk to my sister. She's a super hardcore Roxette fan.

I actually like some of their songs as well.

What's your favorite Roxette song?

Re: The Well: youtalkfunny
 

[ QUOTE ]
How old are you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm 40.

[ QUOTE ]
Did you ever see The Runner with John Goodman? Is anything in that flick accurate at all?

[/ QUOTE ]

Remember the part where the guy crapped his pants while on a date with Courtney Cox? And he couldn't conceal it from her? And she still agreed to go on a second date with this guy?

Well, that was the most realistic part of the film.

(Actually, runners do exist, or at least they did in the '90's. And they do, from time to time, disappear with big chunks of money, or pocket money if they think their boss was going to bet it on a loser. Beyond that, forget about this movie. I did.)

[ QUOTE ]
How come no sites are able to duplicate what Pinnacle has done?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it's not easy.

When you put a bet on the board, the goal is to offer a line where both sides are -EV for the bettor, and +EV for the house. There's no way to know what that number is, you can only give it your best estimate.

Ever see the range game on The Price is Right?

http://www.tpir.tv/vintage/1/range72.JPG

See the shaded purple area? You want the price of the item to be within that window.

In bookmaking terms, going from a 20-cent line to a 30-cent line gives you a much bigger window, and makes it more likely that the break-even point of any particular bet is within that range (ensuring that both sides of the bet are -EV).

Pinny uses an awfully small window, yet they still manage to avoid offering +EV bets to everybody. It takes talent to do that.

[ QUOTE ]
This goes along with the above question, how are square sites so square? Can't they employ 2 people for $200k a year and save that much in a month?

[/ QUOTE ]

Square sites had to spend a ton of money on advertising to get the squares in the first place.

The small offshore book I worked for skimped on advertising, and relied on free posting forums, and word of mouth from the players. In other words, we had sharps, and they told their sharp friends about us. We had almost no squares, so again, it's not hard to see why we didn't last a year. We had some very talented bookmakers and oddsmakers, but we were booking to the wrong crowd, and never stood a chance.

Square sites are making plenty of money as is. Why would they want to change anything?

Re: The Well: youtalkfunny
 

[ QUOTE ]
In which sports and events did you find the books had the best winrates? Not just in terms of gross profits (I'd be shocked if NFL wasn't the clear winner in this regard) but in terms EV per bet. Which sports were the worst? Did this differ at all from B&amp;M and online?

[/ QUOTE ]

Baseball was tough to win at, but that was much more a function of the 10-cent line, which wasn't used in anything else.

I don't think there's much difference at all among the sports, except for the line that was attached to them. Our hold percentage was naturally higher on NASCAR's 30-cent line, than the NFL's 20-cent line. You'd have to divide these by prices, not sports. The NFL and NBA were interchangeable, percentage-wise. Same thing with golf and tennis.

[ QUOTE ]
On a totally different note, aside from the Super Bowl, heavyweight title bouts, and March Madness, what sports-betting events would specifically draw lots of tourists to Vegas.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think every NFL weekend, not just the Super Bowl, draws tourists.

Re: The Well: youtalkfunny
 

[ QUOTE ]
What's your favorite Roxette song?

[/ QUOTE ]

The unplugged version of "Things Will Never Be the Same" on the Tourism album.

(Boy, did we drift off-topic.)

Re: The Well: youtalkfunny
 

i don't know how much you want to say about the offshore book, but i am curious what life was like for you that year. i've lately thought it would be pretty cool to have a good paying, high responsibility job at an offshore book.

what country was the book in? what was life like there?

is there any difficulty with paying taxes and doing other things in the united states, but living/working offshore at a gambling site?

i also wonder how an offshore book operates. is there like one guy on each shift who moves the line for each major sport happening at that time? what do the other non-ticket writing, phone call taking, employees do during crunch time? yell in the linesmaker's ear?

Re: The Well: youtalkfunny
 

[ QUOTE ]
i don't know how much you want to say about the offshore book, but i am curious what life was like for you that year...
...what country was the book in? what was life like there?

[/ QUOTE ]

For me? I worked five days a week, six during football season, usually 8-10 hours/day. The office was air conditioned, had satellite tv, and high-speed internet (not as common in 2001 as it is today). My time off was spent with my wife and kids.

We were in Curacao. Everyone always asks, "Where's that?" I tell them, "It's the island next to Aruba." Then they all nod, as if they have any idea where Aruba is.

My wife hated living down there, which really ruined the experience for me. I don't blame her. You have to be REALLY flexible to adjust to life down there. If you go to the grocery, and they're out of milk, getting upset about it will do no good. If Burger King is out of Whoppers, you can panic, or you shrug and order the chicken sandwich.

This stuff rolled right off my back, but it ate her alive.

Of course, she may have been grumpy because she had no job, and no friends. She was stuck in the house with three babies all day--a house with almost no air conditioning, by the way. You can't afford to air condition a house (electricity is really expensive), so a small window unit in the bedroom is the best you can manage.

The locals don't think 90 degrees is that hot, so they just leave the windows open and enjoy the breeze. My wife is one of those people who doesn't feel safe when the windows are open, and being in a strange, poverty-ridden country did nothing to make her feel "safe". So no open windows while I was at work. We took the tv out of the living room, and moved it into the air conditioned bedroom, which became her prison cell for a year.

I was the only American down there who brought a wife and kids along, so unlike my compatriots, I was supporting a family, running the air conditioner all day, paid for five-times as much laundry to be done, the list goes on.

Everything on that island arrived by plane or boat, so nothing was cheap. A $7 pack of diapers cost $22, and I had three kids in diapers! At least one on baby formula. I'm buying all the American brands that I'm familiar with, and paying through the nose.

All this complaining about my situation is what pissed off my friend, who called me ungrateful. But if somebody asks me, "...i am curious what life was like for you that year," how else can I possibly answer?

The single guys (and ALL of them were single, except me) loved the life. They didn't need a big house, a small apartment was fine. They didn't have huge utility bills, and they didn't need to pay a landscaper to come out and cut the grass and manicure all the plants and trees. And they sure as hell weren't going broke on diapers, and listening to the venting of a wife who's been stuck in the house for a year with crying babies and one room of air conditioning.

No, the single guys had no nut to cover. The company paid the rent and provided a car. So the single guys had a very social nightlife. Lots of drinking, whoring, and partying.

The industry has evolved a lot in its 15 years or so of existence. It's very possible that the "standard deal" of salary+rent+car+bonus if the book does well, is no longer standard. But it was when I was down there.

[ QUOTE ]
i've lately thought it would be pretty cool to have a good paying, high responsibility job at an offshore book.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hope you're single.

[ QUOTE ]
is there any difficulty with paying taxes and doing other things in the united states, but living/working offshore at a gambling site?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, the chief difficulty was that the Dutch government withheld 1/3 of my paycheck each month. I wasn't expecting that when I got there. We got paid once a month, and I was usually broke for most of that last week.

Maintaining US citizenship was not a problem at all, but then again, I never spent a full calender year without a US address.

As far as US taxes go, there are special rules for "foreign income", which I can't remember that well. I think when I demonstrated that the Dutch had already raped me, and that I made &lt;$80k/yr, the US tax code told me, "OK then, you paid enough already, don't worry about us."

[ QUOTE ]
i also wonder how an offshore book operates. is there like one guy on each shift who moves the line for each major sport happening at that time? what do the other non-ticket writing, phone call taking, employees do during crunch time? yell in the linesmaker's ear?

[/ QUOTE ]

We were a small book. We never had more than 4-5 phone clerks working at one time. 95%+ of the bets we took came via the website, not the telephone. The only bettors who used the phone were the lonely guys who wanted someone to talk to.

We were expecting to grow, so there were close to 20 cubicles for phone clerks in our office. They were arranged like a classroom, facing the "front". The front is where the supervisors would sit. There was always one or two supervisors on duty when the office was open.

My desk up front faced the clerks. I had three monitors on my desk: one with my bet-taking software (and internet surfing during down time), one with the Don Best screen showing us up-to-the-second line moves around the Caribbean, and one which displayed every bet we accepted, as it came in.

There were a few sales desks nearby, where salesmen manned the phones to answer questions from people who somehow found our phone number. And there were two separate, smaller offices. One for the big boss (to whom I reported), and one for the accounting office (two desks, and two girls who handled all deposits, cash-outs, payroll, etc).

There wasn't much communication between the clerks and the supervisors at crunch time. They just wrote the bets as fast as they could. They would sometimes need a big bet approved by a supervisor, but that was it. "Account number 8643 wants the Colts -6 for three dimes."

"Take it!"

Re: The Well: youtalkfunny
 

More stories please.

Thanks!

Re: The Well: youtalkfunny
 

Any good video poker stories? Did you ever play semi-pro? What were the weakest machines you ever played? Biggest jackpots? Any nutty people you interact with?

questions on failure of offshore outfit
 

I'm not sure if you've covered this already...if so, apologies.

Why do you think the offshore outfit that you worked at go out of business? Was it poor bookmaking, poor business structure, too few customers, too sharp customers, or something else?

Re: questions on failure of offshore outfit
 

youtalkfunny, your stories are really hilarious and well put. Please continue with them. If you need a specific question, here's one:

I've always wondered this.

As a clerk in a sportsbook, you have all access to customers betting accounts. Soon you'll realize who the sharps are, I guess there might even be a software filtering them for betting behavior.

Would you ever try to learn from their betting patterns, even try to follow their picks themselves at other books?

I know this is the only reason I'd ever get into working for a sportsbook. Learning from the smart guys on your side and on the villain's side (=winning customer).

Re: The Well: youtalkfunny
 

I wonder how easy internet bookies detects scalpers and if they do, are those booted/getting limits reduced severely on the spot?

Re: The Well: youtalkfunny
 

[ QUOTE ]
Any good video poker stories? Did you ever play semi-pro? What were the weakest machines you ever played? Biggest jackpots? Any nutty people you interact with?

[/ QUOTE ]

You must have me confused with someone else. I have no +EV experience with video poker (and almost no -EV or 0EV experience, either).

Re: questions on failure of offshore outfit
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure if you've covered this already...if so, apologies.

Why do you think the offshore outfit that you worked at go out of business? Was it poor bookmaking, poor business structure, too few customers, too sharp customers, or something else?

[/ QUOTE ]

It was a combination of factors. There's a difference of opinion as to which factored in the most, but in no particular order:

--We had all sharps, and almost no squares. I wish we were running ads in Maxim magazine and USA Today, but we weren't. The only hype we were getting was at places like majorwager.com and theprescription.com, not exactly Squaresville.

--Almost every player who signed up did so for the 20-30% sign-up bonus. As soon as they met the WR, they were gone, on to the next site to offer a sign-up bonus. They had no interest in our 10% reload bonus, when every site in the world was offering a 20-30% sign-up bonus.

--Whenever I suggested we boot a player who was beating our brains in, my suggestion was dismissed. The bosses' attitude seemed to be, "As long as he's laying -110, we'll get him in the end."

In retrospect, it's possible that the bosses were thinking that if we booted the sharps, there would be no customers left. We're out of business if we have no customers, so we might as well take our chances against the customers we do have.

Re: questions on failure of offshore outfit
 

[ QUOTE ]
As a clerk in a sportsbook, you have all access to customers betting accounts. Soon you'll realize who the sharps are, I guess there might even be a software filtering them for betting behavior.

Would you ever try to learn from their betting patterns, even try to follow their picks themselves at other books?


[/ QUOTE ]

In Las Vegas, no. There was no rhyme or reason to anyone's selections, unless there was a scalp involved. Except for The Man in the Red Shirt.

The Man in the Red Shirt would come in every day during baseball season. He'd bet the Yankees to win $100, the Braves to win $100, and he'd ask for a buffet comp. He wore the same, stinky red shirt all summer long.

Offshore, I got to learn about chasing steam. Billy Walters would put out an order for Rockets -4, and the Don Best screen would light up, as every book in the world moved to -5. Our phones would start ringing, and I knew that every caller at that particular moment was fighting to be the first to get our -4 before we moved it. Others would take the Rockets no matter what the line was, because they wanted to be on the same side of a game as BW, regardless of price.

(If you don't know who Billy Walters is, let's just say that he's the greatest sports bettor ever. Founder of The Computer Group. No bookie will take his action, so he has to hire "beards" to place his bets for him. He moves so much money on a game, that he has to coordinate his attacks; in the example I give, all his beards have to bet the Rockets at once, in order to get the best number. His plays generate "steam". All the -4's that he didn't hit, others rush to get. After the steam come The Followers, who will continue to bet the Rockets, even if we've already moved it to -5 or -5½.)

Re: The Well: youtalkfunny
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder how easy internet bookies detects scalpers and if they do, are those booted/getting limits reduced severely on the spot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure it's easy to detect them. When they lay -125 on a baseball game, and this prompts me to check the screen and notice that the game in question has risen to -140 everywhere else, it's obvious he's scalping.

Boot him? I can't blame him for accepting a bet that I've offered. I'm the dope who put -125 on the board. How can I get mad at someone who says, "I'll lay the -125."? If I didn't want him to do that, I shouldn't have offered the bet to my customers.

The only exception is when it's steam. Like I said, every book in the world is hit at once with action on one team, and the race is on. Bettors are trying to lay that -125 before I can react to the steam, and move the number "on air" (moving a line before taking any bets).

There are people in this world who pay the $650/mo (or whatever it is nowadays) to subscribe to Don Best's premium, up-to-the-second line info, just to watch it like a hawk, and try to pick off steam numbers at books that are slow to react. They see the game going from -125 to -140, and they're on my website, clicking away, hoping that I'm playing Minesweeper at that particular moment of the day, and that they will be able to lay -125 faster than I can react and move the game to -140.

If I get a player who is consistantly "beating me to the number" this way, I might have to revoke his internet privileges, and tell him that all of his bets with us have to made via telephone.

If that happens, here's how it plays out:

CLERK: YTF Sports, account number and password please.

BETTOR: Account 12345, password PENGUIN

CLERK: (clerk types this info into her computer, a huge window pops up that says, "Notify Supervisor"; she covers phone and calls to me) 12345! (she then says into the phone) Your balance is $2247, how can I help you?

ME: Uh oh, it's the pick-off artist! Let's see what he's trying to pick off this time...Yup, sure enough, the Twins are up to -140, and we've got them at -125....

BETTOR: What's the line on Game 918?

CLERK: (covers phone, calls to me) He wants the line on Game 918, Minnesota Twins. (while she's waiting for further instructions, she punches in 918, and sees that it's -125)

ME: (I'm already in the process of moving the number) Wow, imagine that. Refresh your screen.

CLERK: (hits the refresh button, line is now Twins -140) Sir, Game 918, Minnesota Twins is currently -140.

BETTOR: WHAT??? I'm looking at your website, it's telling me -125!!!

CLERK: (to me) He says it's -125 on the website.

ME: Tell him to refresh his screen.

CLERK: (tells him)

BETTOR: (frustrated) Grrr, never mind. (hangs up)

I didn't boot him. I didn't cut his limits. He can bet all he wants, when he's not picking me off.

Re: The Well: youtalkfunny
 

What are your thoughts on the prospect of licensed and regulated bookmaking (either online or B&amp;M) existing in the United States outside of Nevada? Will it ever happen? Why or why not?

Re: The Well: youtalkfunny
 

Did you ever consider putting in more automated ways of moving your lines in reaction to steam? It seems like just sitting there and watching Don Best is a very inefficient way of avoiding the steam bets. You could at least set something up to alert you if &gt;4 other books move their lines within 2 minutes. Just curious about the level of computer sophistication at the offshore book.

Re: The Well: youtalkfunny
 

[ QUOTE ]
Did you ever consider putting in more automated ways of moving your lines in reaction to steam? It seems like just sitting there and watching Don Best is a very inefficient way of avoiding the steam bets. You could at least set something up to alert you if &gt;4 other books move their lines within 2 minutes. Just curious about the level of computer sophistication at the offshore book.

[/ QUOTE ]

YTF,

I was also wondering about this. I read a story of yours, maybe a year or so ago when you talked about a group of guys just sitting around and making up lies. I often sit and wonder to myself, "how the hell are the linesmakers so good." I hear people say that it is all computers that are creating a raiders +8 line nowadays. How true is this? Or are people still responsible for the majority of lines?

Re: The Well: youtalkfunny
 

Though I do not bet on sports, this is a great thread. Thanks.

Re: The Well: youtalkfunny
 

[ QUOTE ]
Did you ever consider putting in more automated ways of moving your lines in reaction to steam? It seems like just sitting there and watching Don Best is a very inefficient way of avoiding the steam bets. You could at least set something up to alert you if &gt;4 other books move their lines within 2 minutes. Just curious about the level of computer sophistication at the offshore book.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whenever a line, any line, moves on the Don Best screen, the computer lets out a loud "DING!", and the line in question is highlighted in black.

When you hear "DINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDING", and see a horizontal line of black (meaning that one game has moved at every book in the last second or two--remember DB gives up-to-the-SECOND updates), that's as automated as we can make it.

The steam chasers hear the same DING's that we heard, and the race is on--can we change the number before we get picked off? Usually, yes. If somebody beats us, we have to eat it. If somebody is continually beating us, then we have to tell him to phone in his bets.

And if I'm on the toilet, and I hear "DINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDING"?

Not good times. Bad times.

Re: The Well: youtalkfunny
 

[ QUOTE ]
What are your thoughts on the prospect of licensed and regulated bookmaking (either online or B&amp;M) existing in the United States outside of Nevada? Will it ever happen? Why or why not?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not, because of the Bradley Act of 1992.

Senator (and former NY Knick) Bill Bradley got the Bradley act passed, a federal law that outlaws sports betting.

Nevada's sports betting industry got grandfathered in, as well as the three other states where sports betting was already legal: MT, DE, and OR all have used sports betting in their state lotteries, and still reserve the right to do so.

DE is currently debating a bill in their state legislature to bring it back, as their "racinos" (slot machines at the racetrack) took a big hit when MD and PA added slots to their racetracks recently.

If any of those three states get sports betting, it will only be a pari-mutuel parlay card, like they have in Canada. You'll never find a +EV bet.

NJ has been toying with the idea of challenging the constitutionality of The Bradley Act, making "states' rights" an issue. Of course, the NFL and NBA have franchises in NJ, and their anti-gambling lobby carries a LOT of weight. Because of this, I don't think NJ has ever been serious about such a challenge of federal law.

NV has not given up hope of being allowed to take sports bets online from US residents outside NV. It's completely illegal now, but they think that may change in the future ("Why should we make people send their money to some shady character offshore? Shouldn't they be able to send it to a trusted, American name like CaesarsPalace.com? WE CAN TAX IT THAT WAY.")