Request for a ruling
 

Two players in the pot. Player A goes AI. Player B calls. Player A says "you got me" and pushes his cards about an inch forward.

Player B shows a pair of aces and starts raking the pot in. Player A turns over his cards to show he was bluffing.

Player C said "wait a minute, you have a straight."

Player B said that verbal statements are binding and as such the cards were folded.

A ruling was made that since player A had never actually put his cards into the muck pile and that they were still in front of him, the straight is good.

Was this a correct ruling, or not?

Re: Request for a ruling
 

Cards Speak.

Player A wins.

Re: Request for a ruling
 

I agree - Player B was silly for even showing his cards here; If he had mucked himself Player A probably would not have shown, and even if he did, I would say Player B is entitled to the pot since he mucked based on Player A conceding.

Re: Request for a ruling
 

A more interesting situation...

What if Player A does the same thing, then Player B says "Cool" and mucks, then starts raking the pot.

Robert's Rules states:

"Your hand is declared dead if you throw your hand away in a forward motion causing another player to act behind you (even if not facing a bet )."

Does Player A's verbal "you got me" and his cards moving an inch forward constitute a fold, making his hand dead?

I think it does.

Re: Request for a ruling
 

i had the same thing happen to me in a casino in londen.
i checkraise turn, opponent calls and we both check river.
i show my top pair and he says ok, then he shows his cards while mucking to player next to him and he says: dude you have a straight. some players requested a ruling and floormen said "cards speak".

Re: Request for a ruling
 

Cards speak unless the hand is mucked and no longer identifiable. There is a big difference between a "dead hand" and a "mucked hand". A dead hand cannot be brought back to life while a mucked hand can (unless it is buried then it is also dead).

I think too many people try to use the muck rule to win pots they don't deserve (at showdown that is).

Re: Request for a ruling
 

I understand that in the spirit of the rule, cards would speak in this situation, since the cars only moved an inch, and you would want to award the pot to the correct person when possible. But according to the rule, if Player B mucked his hand (he should know to hold on to his card until he has the pot) as a result of Player A's actions, wouldn't Player A's hand be declared dead?

Re: Request for a ruling
 

You shouldnt be playing if you didnt know that you had a winning hand. Especially when it sounds like it was the nuts.

Re: Request for a ruling
 

[ QUOTE ]
Two players in the pot. Player A goes AI. Player B calls. Player A says "you got me" and pushes his cards about an inch forward.

Player B shows a pair of aces and starts raking the pot in. Player A turns over his cards to show he was bluffing.

Player C said "wait a minute, you have a straight."

Player B said that verbal statements are binding and as such the cards were folded.

A ruling was made that since player A had never actually put his cards into the muck pile and that they were still in front of him, the straight is good.

Was this a correct ruling, or not?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because player A tabled his cards he wins. It would be different if he had lifted his cards up and showed them to player C who tells him he has a straight. Player A's minor push of his cards and his statement that "you got me" have no bearing.

When I play at a casino and this comes up I always try and wait for the player to muck his cards before I do anything but typically if they says "you got me" they are still going to wait and see what the other player holds before giving up.

Re: Request for a ruling
 

"You got me" with pushing cards forward sounds like a concession. This action declares "I concede, you win."

[ QUOTE ]
Player B shows a pair of aces and starts raking the pot in.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's player As responsibility to table his hand before the pot has been claimed. Player B gets the pot because Player A was a moron.

Re: Request for a ruling
 

[ QUOTE ]
"You got me" with pushing cards forward sounds like a concession. This action declares "I concede, you win."

[ QUOTE ]
Player B shows a pair of aces and starts raking the pot in.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's player As responsibility to table his hand before the pot has been claimed. Player B gets the pot because Player A was a moron.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong-O.

Re: Request for a ruling
 

Conceding victory and pushing your cards in is a muck.

Re: Request for a ruling
 

This isn't a muck until the cards touch the muck. That verbal declaration isn't equivalent to "I fold".

Player A's pot, but he should be warned to be careful about his verbal actions and moves in the future.

Re: Request for a ruling
 

[ QUOTE ]
"You got me" with pushing cards forward sounds like a concession. This action declares "I concede, you win."

[/ QUOTE ]

Also wrong-o. What it sounds like and what it is are two different things.

Re: Request for a ruling
 

[ QUOTE ]
Conceding victory and pushing your cards in is a muck.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree, depending on any past history of angle-shooting.

Re: Request for a ruling
 

[ QUOTE ]
A more interesting situation...

What if Player A does the same thing, then Player B says "Cool" and mucks, then starts raking the pot.

Does Player A's verbal "you got me" and his cards moving an inch forward constitute a fold, making his hand dead?

I think it does.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, but making a verbal declaration that causes an incorrect action behind you could make your hand dead.

If Player B did not show his hand before mucking, then he is warned to table his hand in the future and not to let go of his cards until the pot is in his possession.

Player A is warned that he might get ruled against in the future if he gets cutesy.

Re: Request for a ruling
 

We had this discussion with a dealer at the Borg this past week. She said as long as the cards don't hit the muck they are still live if they are flipped before they hit the muck.

She said any good dealer will have their hand over the muck protecting it to make absolutely sure a player wants his or her cards to go in there.

Re: Request for a ruling
 

Be very very careful when trying to go with any of these variations in a cardroom, as it varies everywhere.

Outside of that, listen to Larry and Rottersod regarding rulings.

Re: Request for a ruling
 

Saying "You got me" is not a conceding anything. You can say "you got me" and still retain your hand, ie: "you got me, oh, you only have 9 high? I guess my King high is good, okay, I'll just go ahead and rake this pot in."

Re: Request for a ruling
 

Ruling was correct, Player A never folded.
ON a side note, had it been me in players B position, I would of waited for player A either muck his hand or show it before tabling my aces.

Re: Request for a ruling
 

This ruling would be correct where I work also, as stated this is a tabled, not mucked, hand.

Re: Request for a ruling
 

[ QUOTE ]
Cards Speak.

Player A wins.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Request for a ruling
 

This may be a long shot but maybe Player A just wanted to see player B cards. So instead of showing a strong hand he fakes the, "you got me" knowing he will flip the cards after Player B shows. I find it strange that he concedes and pushes the cards about a inch then takes the time to show.

Re: Request for a ruling
 

as far as the hypothetical question goes. think about players intentions...

"you got me" and pushing cards forward face down is a concession. -if player b mucks his aces without showing, it wouldnt matter what player a shows.

reason 1... player a realizes he has a straight. player b could have mucked a higher straight or same hand for a chop. -youd never know because he mucked when player a conceded.

reason 2...angle shooting is naughty.

since the aces were shown and the straight was discovered, the player with the aces humped himself and the pot was rewarded the to correct hand because cards do read.