Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

I usually respect Daniel's opinions but I do feel that he is way off here. In his most recent blog entry he challenged Tournament Directors to get rid of the the rule that you cannot expose cards during a hand when there is still action pending. Here is the quote from Daniel "Then I squeezed my cards. After squeezing the first card, I revealed it to Sammy. Remember now, this is REAL poker, with no interference from tournament directors that are trying to take the psychological aspect of the game away from us. Frankly, it's a tragedy what these tournament directors are doing. The players need to unite and get rid of this ridiculous rule that prevents players from showing their hole cards in heads up pots. I don't know of ANY professional player who thinks this rule has any value. Ask anyone from Phil Hellmuth to Howard Lederer and they will tell you that the right to show a card is part of the game."

First of all it was during High Stakes Poker and NOT a tournament, I agree that in a live game showing cards is a legal move. He then goes on to say "Taking this out if the game is so unnerving to me. What's next, no speaking at the table? No prodding for information? Then finally, no bluffing at all? It's absurd! I would happily challenge Matt Savage, Jack McLelland, and any other tournament director in favor of this rule to a public debate on the merits of it. The only reason I've ever heard them give is that it prevents people from "needling" their opponents. Give me a break! We are poker players here and don't need anyone out there to hold our hand. It's free information, and if the guy doesn't want to look, he doesn't have to.

Has anyone ever heard of a poker player getting upset, and thinking it was "unfair" that an opponent, in a heads up pot, showed him a card either during or after the hand? Are you kidding me? It's time that we rethink some of the rules and ask ourselves if they really make any sense at all. This one, the "how one show all" rule, clearly doesn't."
He is so WRONG here if he thinks that showing another player cards during the hand should be legal in tournaments. BTW, he also feels that you should be able to say whatever you want during the play of the hand. So I suppose he thinks what Jamie Gold did during the 2006 WSOP Main Event should also be allowed? Even Norman Chad and Lon Mechron could see that he was breaking the rules by claiming what he had in his hand with action pending. Here is just some of the problems that could arise if this was allowed. Let's suppose Daniel was involved with a friend of his and shows him the best hand before that person calls, should that be allowed Daniel? When you are in a tournament you are never heads up until there are two players left and TD's should not have to make constant judgment calls about whether there is collusion or not and that would definitely happen if this was allowed.

David Lamb writes "Remind Daniel that tournament player's are on a clock and the inevitable inequity occurs anytime one player takes a long time to do the mental sparring- showing or talking about their hand to induce action. It becomes more inequitable if the pro takes a long time messing with the amateur but not their contemporaries. In fact, it seems like allowing rules that favor the seasoned pro and prime time TV are more important than maintaining an even playing field."
While we all know it makes for great TV and it is what the Steve Lipscomb's of the world want we cannot make this concession in tournaments.
He mentions needling as the only reason we as TD's use that rule and that is just another reason to stop players from exposing their hole cards verbally or by showing cards. Could you imagine if players were allowed to show cards when they wanted to needle someone, some players would do this constantly and only to particular players. We need to create an event playing field and showing cards becomes totally subjective. I love Daniel but I would welcome a debate with him on the subject........BRING IT ON!
I welcome your opinions and thoughts on this topic, please send your emails to Matt@SavageTournaments.com.

Matt Savage

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

Matt,
I believe that in a heads up pot when one player is all in the player who is contemplating the call should be allowed to show his cards to the player who is all in.

This allows for the the player who is being put to the test to gain information via psychological warfare something that is, and should always be, a part of poker.

The player who shoved all in should not be permitted to show his card to his opponent because doing so would make it easier for those players to collude.

I do not agree with the wording of your poll. I do not believe that a player should be permitted to show his cards "at any time" rather that he should be permitted to show his cards if his opponent is all in and it is a heads up pot. I also do not believe that it is "too subjective"

FWIW I voted for the first option as I do not believe that Daniel is wrong in this instance.

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Matt,
I believe that in a heads up pot when one player is all in the player who is contemplating the call should be allowed to show his cards to the player who is all in.

This allows for the the player who is being put to the test to gain information via psychological warfare something that is, and should always be, a part of poker.

The player who shoved all in should not be permitted to show his card to his opponent because doing so would make it easier for those players to collude.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see your point but again it is way too subjective for an even playing field. Can you imagine the amount of "hollywood" that would take place if this was allowed?

Matt

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

So is your argument that you do not think that players should be permitted to show their cards because you want to speed up the game or is your argument that players should not be permitted to do so because it could lead to collusion which is unfair to the other players at the table and the other players in the tournament.

Unfortunately, hollywooding has become a significant part of the game. You see it when you walk by a 1/2nl game and the guy in the ipod and sunglasses stands up and waits for 5 minutes talking about how sick his decision is before mucking his middle pair on the river. This is created by the TV side of poker. The ESPN announcers have made it seem cool to do a song and dance before making your decisions and because those players are more entertaining for the TV audience the casual player has begun to think that this is how the game should be played.

The fact of the matter is however, that in a $10,000 buy in event players should be able to use all of the tools in their aresenal before making a decision for all of their chips. Does this slow up the game? Of course it does. But, does this allow for players to make better decisions and to get their moneys worth in big buy in events? I would argue that it does that too and that the rules should protect players who are trying to make correct decisions.

There is currently a rule in place where any player at the table can call the clock on a player who is taking too long to make his decision. If someone shows their opponent a card and then does a song and dance for a few minutes anyone is in their right to call the clock on that player. It should not be your priority (in my oppinion) to rush the game, rather it should be your priority to protect the integrity of the game and to allow players to play their hand in the best way possible (provided that they are not cheating the other players through collusion or something similar.)

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

I'm still not sure on this and would love to hear you and Daniel debate this. I'm thinking this should definitely be allowed in cash games, but I'm not sure about tournaments.

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

you're right that allowing people to show cards makes it easier for people to collude in tournaments and chip dump.

the counterarguement to this of course is that people who collude like this in tournaments would set up signals anyway.

however, allowing this rule allows colluders to justify their collusion. ie, a friend of the chip leader is on the bubble and to help his buddy out, the chip leader shows his hand after going allin to give his buddy the chance to double up if ahead or fold if behind. when players accuse the leader of collusion he can simply say that he didn't break any rules, showing cards is allowed. it shouldn't be the tc's responsibility to determine if this is collusion as the chip leader could just lie about his intent of showing his card(s).

I think the current rule is the right one. I see no practical reason for why "pros" need to show other players their cards midhand.

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

Remember, Daniel thinks you should be able to show your cards or disclose your hand whenever you want. Strangely enough, I can only remember having this complaint twice during my three years as TD of the WSOP (I ruled the same way then) and neither incident was with Daniel. The first time was with Amarillo Slim and the second was "Oklahoma" Johnny Hale when he turned his cards face up when he was all-in and there was still action pending on the sidepot.

Matt

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

Matt,
Is the under the current rules is the offender's hand declared dead or is he just sent to the penalty box following the hand?

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Matt,
Is the under the current rules is the offender's hand declared dead or is he just sent to the penalty box following the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Never a dead hand, just a penalty

Matt

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

Here's a situation. Daniel (or anyone else who thinks you should be able to show while heads up) is three handed at the FT. Any time he folds, his two opponents table their hands and the one with the worst hand immediately folds. DN wouldn't have a problem with that ?

Of course he would. I know that's not why DN and others want to show a card, but it's indistinguishable in terms of the rules. Matt is right. If you want to Hollywood and show cards, do it in cash games.

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

I agree with this:
[ QUOTE ]
I believe that in a heads up pot when one player is all in the player who is contemplating the call should be allowed to show his cards to the player who is all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I agree that this should be outlawed:
[ QUOTE ]
Here's a situation. Daniel (or anyone else who thinks you should be able to show while heads up) is three handed at the FT. Any time he folds, his two opponents table their hands and the one with the worst hand immediately folds. DN wouldn't have a problem with that

[/ QUOTE ]

These two concepts are NOT mutually exclusive.

I also do not believe that it is the TDs job to prevent Hollywooding. That is the reason why players at the table have the ability ot call the clock.

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Remember, Daniel thinks you should be able to show your cards or disclose your hand whenever you want.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I read in his blogs about this earlier, that he was also upset that you could not show one card, and one card only, after the hand was over.
Example:
Player 1 raises pre (he is known to raise with alot of cards).
Player 2 calls from the BB (this player is fairly tight and very aggressive).
Flop comes K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Player 2 bets half the pot, and player 1 calls.
Turn card comes 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Player 2 bets one third of the pot, player 1 calls.
River is the 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Player 2 bets the pot, and player 1 goes over the top ALL IN.
Player 2 goes into the tank and finally folds, and player one exposes only one of his hole cards, the 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

I think based off of Daniel's earlier blog showing only one hole card after the hand is over is not allowed either.
Is this true? If so could anybody shed light on the reasoning for this rule?

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

Both sides makes good arguments. I think it would be an interesting debate. Is there a forum to discuss Rules?

ThreeBeers

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

I agree with Daniel and don't see anything wrong with what Jamie was doing at all. Said that. If I had to vote I would vote to keep the rules as is because I think they work and have become standard.

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

[ QUOTE ]
He (Daniel) is so WRONG here

[/ QUOTE ]

Without doubt Matt Savage is correct. Daniel is wrong! First things first. Poker Tournaments do not a poker game make. They are not Poker Games. Tournaments are events in which each and every participant has a stake in the results. Consequently, each and every participant has a stake in each and every action and/or decision made by each and every other participant. Potential colluding aside there are valid reasons, that I won't go into here, for not allowing discussion of hands during play by any tournament participant whether heads-up or multi-way or in the hand or not. Matt Savage definitely has this right.

pokervintage.

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

I can't see how this could be allowed during "bubble" time. Players would be showing the strength of their hands to protect them from getting called and risk going out just before the bubble broke. I've wanted to show the strength of my hand many times playing on-line SNG's with 4 players left.

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Matt,
Is the under the current rules is the offender's hand declared dead or is he just sent to the penalty box following the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Never a dead hand, just a penalty

Matt

[/ QUOTE ]

If Daniel is such a hockey buff, then why doesn't he just go ahead and show a card if he feels the need? If he gets caught, he does his time in the penalty box and then jumps back out on the ice...

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

Just received a call from Howard Lederer in Ireland and he says he was misquoted by Daniel. He stated as many do that showing one card after the hand is over SHOULD be allowed. It is NOT a TDA rule but many tournaments rule that if you show one card AFTER the hand you must show two. That is the rule Howard disagrees with. He also claims that in a cash game or a heads up tournament you should be able to show cards which I totally agree with.
I asked Howard to post here and he said I could quote him, just FYI in case you don't think the top pros are lurking.

BTW, where is Shaniac, I am interested in his take?

Matt Savage

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

i don't think players should be able to expose their cards during a hand. it would create too many problems.

however, i do think players should be able to expose a single card after the hand is over. I hate the fact that you have to show both cards, or none. I think it's a silly rule.

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Matt,
I believe that in a heads up pot when one player is all in the player who is contemplating the call should be allowed to show his cards to the player who is all in.

This allows for the the player who is being put to the test to gain information via psychological warfare something that is, and should always be, a part of poker.

The player who shoved all in should not be permitted to show his card to his opponent because doing so would make it easier for those players to collude.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see your point but again it is way too subjective for an even playing field. Can you imagine the amount of "hollywood" that would take place if this was allowed?



[/ QUOTE ]

Matt,

Do you think the rules should be designed to decrease (or even eliminate) what you describe as "hollywood"? Wouldn't that also be very subjective?

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Matt,
I believe that in a heads up pot when one player is all in the player who is contemplating the call should be allowed to show his cards to the player who is all in.

This allows for the the player who is being put to the test to gain information via psychological warfare something that is, and should always be, a part of poker.

The player who shoved all in should not be permitted to show his card to his opponent because doing so would make it easier for those players to collude.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see your point but again it is way too subjective for an even playing field. Can you imagine the amount of "hollywood" that would take place if this was allowed?



[/ QUOTE ]

Matt,

Do you think the rules should be designed to decrease (or even eliminate) what you describe as "hollywood"? Wouldn't that also be very subjective?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is more about integrity and an even playing field. A little "Hollywood" IS good for the game and the reason people like watching it on TV. So no I do not want to eliminate all of the "Hollywood" tactics but I do think you should have to earn the right to showboat :-)

Matt

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

I agree with Matt. Cards should not be shown in a tournament. Players should also not state what cards they hold, while playing in a tournament. In a tournament, even if the hand is heads up, each player is still playing against the rest of the field.

Much of what Daniel says in his article below, regarding soft-playing a friend, actually contains arguments against his opinion for showing cards while in a tournament:

http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/printDS/140189

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

[ QUOTE ]

however, i do think players should be able to expose a single card after the hand is over. I hate the fact that you have to show both cards, or none. I think it's a silly rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do think if the hand is showndown the winning hand SHOULD HAVE to show both cards, but if the opponent folds at any point, showing only one card should be allowed. I am of the camp where slow rolling is about the worst show of bush leagueness (and I am aware that those that agree with me on this, no explanation is neccesary, while those that disagree and enjoy their slow rolling, no explanation will suffice)so allowing only one card to be shown to win the pot in a contested showdown opens up HUGE doors for slow rolling, bad vibes and unchanneled anger that is ridiculously stupid, because if the geek that wants to slow roll or argue were not in a casino he wouldn't act that way. (example: the kid in the WSOP that got into it with Jamie Gold got a penalty for cussing and had to sit out, he had HUGE poker in a public place muscles, and from behind his computer monitor he is BAD ASS, but once he got knocked out on his horrible draw all in call, he reverted back to his no sun seeing, pocket protector wearing dweeb that he is. Now if he, and others like him, just respected everybody that sat down at the table and treated everyone and the game with dignity we would have no problems. Unfortunately, I think it will be a long time before the masses as a whole play it gentlemanly and gentlewomanly 100% of the time, all the time.

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

[ QUOTE ]
i do think players should be able to expose a single card after the hand is over. I hate the fact that you have to show both cards, or none. I think it's a silly rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree. I would sometimes flash a single card AFTER my opponent mucks (i.e. hand is over). Now, with the idiotic "show one show both" rule, I simply muck both cards. It makes the game less enjoyable for me, and I think for my opponents who are now getting zero information instead of partial information.

I don't have a strong opinion on exposing cards DURING a heads-up hand. I think DN would argrue that it adds skill to the game. On the other hand it is likely to slow down play, and seeing fewer hands takes skill out of the game. There could be issues with soft-playing/collusion, etc.

On balance I think the current rule (regarding no exposing during the hand) is good as the slooooooow pace of live tourney play is the primary reason I have reduced the number of events I play------there is already way too much hollywooding/delay. And minimizing cheating/angle shooting should be of paramount importance.

A cash game is different as you are not on the clock and issues like soft playing become less of a concern.

btw, exposing your hand after your opponent is all-in is not giving free information (it is an attempt to receive free information).

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

wrt to the new rule, couldn't you just muck one card and then show the other? would doing this repeatedly lead to a penalty? heh

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

[ QUOTE ]


I don't have a strong opinion on exposing cards DURING a heads-up hand. I think DN would argrue that it adds skill to the game. On the other hand it is likely to slow down play, and seeing fewer hands takes skill out of the game. There could be issues with soft-playing/collusion, etc.

On balance I think the current rule (regarding no exposing during the hand) is good as the slooooooow pace of live tourney play is the primary reason I have reduced the number of events I play------there is already way too much hollywooding/delay. And minimizing cheating/angle shooting should be of paramount importance.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with all this, and I would like to suggest that the active promotion of SPEED POKER should be a priority for anyone looking to improve tournaments. Poker players will probably endlessly argue about things like how much table talk is appropriate and whether we should be able to expose cards HU, but speed poker would necessitate a lot less talking and jiving at the table and eliminate a lot of the brooding, coffeehousing and showmanship that slows the game down.

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't have a strong opinion on exposing cards DURING a heads-up hand. I think DN would argrue that it adds skill to the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh. I don't think Daniel's losing much of an opportunity to "out-skill" his opponents. He effectively does the same as showing when there is four-to-a-gutshot on the board and he asks his all-in opponent, "hmmm, can you beat a set of sixes?"

I guess showing while the hand is still active would be a small deterrent to the Kill Phil strategy used by unskilled players to put the tough decision and all the pressure on the opponent. Daniel could show his cards and "look into their soul", pressing them to make a mistake and give off a tell.

But I don't feel strongly one way or the other, since I don't play live very much. Hey, we should beta this on PokerStars! It would be interesting if you could show one or both cards heads up. And I'd love to be able to show one card after my opponent has folded. Online, this would not likely slow things down too much.

-Z

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

It seems to me allowing people to show cards just makes collusion much easier. As well I think any edge a player would get from this would be so marginal it wouldn't even be worthwhile.

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

ehhh i have no opinion either way here, i dont like how he goes on a tangent of useless nonsense like what next, we cant talk at the table? to try stressing his point

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

Situations can arise in heads up pots in NL hold'em tournaments where if Player A could show Player B his cards, Player B would correctly fold and both players would benefit. This obviously can't occur in a cash game. Preventing this sort of collusion is important. The current rules are definitely right and Negreanu is definitely wrong.

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Situations can arise in heads up pots in NL hold'em tournaments where if Player A could show Player B his cards, Player B would correctly fold and both players would benefit.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Fundamental Theorum of Poker would disagree with this.

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

You made some decent points, fortunately I could easily defend my position on each and every one of them.

What I found odd about Matt's response is the fact that he neglects to reference the main objection that I have: the morphing of the "show one show all rule" that is designed to not allow players to share information with just one player, into showing one card meaning that you must show both.

You will have an impossible time convincing me that there is anything unethical about a hand being over, a player winning a pot, and then flipping over a 5c so that all could see it.

Under the current rule, that player, who just shared FREE information about a part of his hand, is told that other players would now have the right to see the other card as well. Are you kidding me? Why? Explain that one to me? Nevermind, it's simply not possible to explain how this makes any sense and I don't know that you will find a professional poker player to agree with that stance.

As for being able to show a card during the middle of the hand, I could see where making a change back to a more pure form of poker at this point could be problematic since the industry has weeded out this poker SKILL from the game. However, why in the world should I be penalized for turning my hand up on the river when a player has made a bet and it's up to me to call in a heads up pot? Why in the world should I not be allowed to show my opponent my hand?

In my blog I took my position to the extreme, but frankly, that's not what I'm calling for. I'm hoping that the show one show all rule is clarified so that a player, after the hand is over can show one card without being forced to show the other card if asked, or as McLelland would have it, having the dealer turn it up!

The other main objection I have is that when it's a heads up pot and a player has made a bet at me on the river, I should have every right to show him my hand. Look him in the face, and gauge his level of fear. That is an integral part of the game that was part of the WSOP in the late 90's when I started and it was NOT problematic. There was never an uproar from the players to change this rule. It was only changed later by tournarment directors, not poker players necessarily, with little to no provication.

As much as I'd like to go back the old ways, I'd be more than happy with the following compromise:

1. Allow players to show one card at the end of the hand without being forced to show both cards.

2. When there is no more action pending and a player is facing a bet, he should have EVERY right to show his opponent one, or both of his cards.

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

[ QUOTE ]
You made some decent points, fortunately I could easily defend my position on each and every one of them.

What I found odd about Matt's response is the fact that he neglects to reference the main objection that I have: the morphing of the "show one show all rule" that is designed to not allow players to share information with just one player, into showing one card meaning that you must show both.

You will have an impossible time convincing me that there is anything unethical about a hand being over, a player winning a pot, and then flipping over a 5c so that all could see it.

Under the current rule, that player, who just shared FREE information about a part of his hand, is told that other players would now have the right to see the other card as well. Are you kidding me? Why? Explain that one to me? Nevermind, it's simply not possible to explain how this makes any sense and I don't know that you will find a professional poker player to agree with that stance.

As for being able to show a card during the middle of the hand, I could see where making a change back to a more pure form of poker at this point could be problematic since the industry has weeded out this poker SKILL from the game. However, why in the world should I be penalized for turning my hand up on the river when a player has made a bet and it's up to me to call in a heads up pot? Why in the world should I not be allowed to show my opponent my hand?

In my blog I took my position to the extreme, but frankly, that's not what I'm calling for. I'm hoping that the show one show all rule is clarified so that a player, after the hand is over can show one card without being forced to show the other card if asked, or as McLelland would have it, having the dealer turn it up!

The other main objection I have is that when it's a heads up pot and a player has made a bet at me on the river, I should have every right to show him my hand. Look him in the face, and gauge his level of fear. That is an integral part of the game that was part of the WSOP in the late 90's when I started and it was NOT problematic. There was never an uproar from the players to change this rule. It was only changed later by tournarment directors, not poker players necessarily, with little to no provication.

As much as I'd like to go back the old ways, I'd be more than happy with the following compromise:

1. Allow players to show one card at the end of the hand without being forced to show both cards.

2. When there is no more action pending and a player is facing a bet, he should have EVERY right to show his opponent one, or both of his cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

For the record the show one show both rule has never been a TDA rule and never will be. I also told Daniel that I reconsidered that one point but he was busy in a tournament and does not remember. I do not use the show one show both rule after the hand is over anymore. It was the spirit of the game complaint that got me to change my mind in the first place. We had always called it the "no needle" rule but needling has its place in poker to as long as it is not abused. Good arguments came from many sources including Daniel, Howard Lederer, Steve Zolotow, and Mike OMalley.

On to Daniel's point #2 I will not agree that you should be allowed to show your cards when heads up unless the following

1. There are two players left in the tournament
2. It is a heads up tournament
3. It is a cash game

In a multi table tournament it would be impossible to regulate all of the potential problems that could arise from showing cards during the play of the hand and everyone is affected.

Matt Savage

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

Daniel,

The main issue is that I'm not happy with players showing each other cards during the hand. You haven't addressed this in your reply. The most important thing is that players should not be able to show each other cards during a hand in order to inhibit action. After the hand, or when your opponent has no more actions to take, fine.

On a personal note though, I think it would be nice if certain "name" players stopped slowing the game down though over-dramatic Hollywooding and chatter. I'm not suggesting a rule for that, it would be appreciated is all.

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Situations can arise in heads up pots in NL hold'em tournaments where if Player A could show Player B his cards, Player B would correctly fold and both players would benefit.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Fundamental Theorum of Poker would disagree with this.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Fundamental Theorem doesn't always apply when CHIPEV != $EV. Sklansky would definitely agree with me on this.

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Situations can arise in heads up pots in NL hold'em tournaments where if Player A could show Player B his cards, Player B would correctly fold and both players would benefit. This obviously can't occur in a cash game. Preventing this sort of collusion is important. The current rules are definitely right and Negreanu is definitely wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]
Quoted for complete truth. There are times in a tournament where an allin situation can occur in the 2 people allin suffering -$Ev and everyone not in the hand gaining. By being able to show your hand you alert them to that situation thus hurting everyone else in the touornament.

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

Of the people who object to showing cards while your hand is still live only Daniel has addressed:

[ QUOTE ]
2. When there is no more action pending and a player is facing a bet, he should have EVERY right to show his opponent one, or both of his cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is the disadvantage of permitting someone to show their cards when in a heads up pot and the opponent is all in?

There is not a fear of collusion and there is no disadvantage to the other players when this happens.

The only possible sticky scenario is that the guy who pushed sees the hand and says 'you should fold' but that happens often anyway and if people were going to collude they would already know that they should fold to keep their friend in the tournament.

Please address why you believe that that specific (but common) scenario should be outlawed

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Situations can arise in heads up pots in NL hold'em tournaments where if Player A could show Player B his cards, Player B would correctly fold and both players would benefit.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Fundamental Theorum of Poker would disagree with this.

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The Fundamental Theorem doesn't always apply when CHIPEV != $EV. Sklansky would definitely agree with me on this.

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"Paging Dr. Sklansky... Dr. Sklansky to the Tournament Circuit forum please...."

Re: Daniel Negreanu is WRONG!
 

Live play is so damn slow as it is. Keep the rule as it is.

If it is ever changed so that it's allowed, it should definitely be a LIMITED privilege. Maybe give everyone a "Expose Cards" button, which you're allowed to use ONCE per blind level.

Probably a stupid idea, but if this rule is ever put in place there are going to be people who do it EVERY SINGLE TIME they are heads up just because the can. There has to be something in place to prevent that.

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky