$16s- 25/50, 2 hands shoving over multiple limpers
 

Anyone not like playing this way against multiple limpers? It's at a level that I am guessing many people just raise (or with AQ even limp) but I think that shoving over and sometimes getting called by hands you dominate is the best move here instead of raising and losing chips (200-250 atleast) when you miss the flop.

Hand 1:

PokerStars Tournament, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t1140)
UTG+1 (t1545)
MP1 (t1430)
MP2 (t1465)
Hero (t1475)
CO (t1263)
Button (t1565)
SB (t2424)
BB (t1193)

Preflop: Hero is in MP3 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
<font color="gray">UTG folds</font>, UTG+1 calls t50, MP1 calls t50, MP2 calls t50, <font color="red">Hero raises to t1475 (All-in)</font>

Hand 2:

PokerStars Tournament, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t2360)
UTG+1 (t1670)
MP1 (t2740)
CO (t1330)
Hero (t1320)
SB (t2580)
BB (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is in Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
<font color="gray">UTG folds</font>, UTG+1 calls t50, <font color="gray">MP1 folds</font>, CO calls t50, <font color="red">Hero raises to t1320 (All-in)</font>

Re: $16s- 25/50, 2 hands shoving over multiple limpers
 

wow i dont know if i like either of these..

i definitely fold hand one.. we have AQ and we haven't even seen the action of the other 4 players.

hand two.. AK, i don't mind getting all in pf at this level, but i really think a raise 200-225 is better. if you miss the flop you can still take it down a good portion of the time with a cont bet unless its multiway then you might be spewing.

I dunno, hand 1 i fold, hand 2 your way is logically good but i think you still want to make the play that will get you the most chips, and i don't know any hands where you aren't either dominated or in a coinflip with.. i'd rather see a flop and the opportunity to get it in ahead.

Re: $16s- 25/50, 2 hands shoving over multiple limpers
 

From what I've seen if I raise up to 225-250 I will fairly often have multiple callers and I hate having AK go to the flop with more than two players, missing my hand then having to just check/fold. Not to mention even if you get heads up the pot is now enormous.. probably 600+ so a cbet is like half of your remaining stack.

Even with AQ I think its fine, they are generally limping trash here, if they really wanna flip with a small PP oh well, they usually fold them and its not the end of the world anyway when they call.

Re: $16s- 25/50, 2 hands shoving over multiple limpers
 

I don't understand though, what hands do see flops with? do you do this with JJ+ too? if there are 2 limpers and you have JJ do you raise it to 200 or push? if you get called at 200, if a A/K/Q flops do you check/fold ?

You play higher than me so I don't profess anything, I'm just curious as to what hands you're collecting chips with before push/fold stage.

Re: $16s- 25/50, 2 hands shoving over multiple limpers
 

JJ I would raise, check/folding bad flops with multiple callers and c-betting some flops heads up.

Its somewhat rare to see these spots, being in MP or LP and having a bunch of limpers before you. Often you raise before limpers or with only one or something so your raise can be smaller. Here your raise must be so large that I think you are better off raising and taking down the smaller pot (occasionally flipping or dominating some Ax hand that decides to call) than raising and often having to c-bet for your whole stack.

With the AQ I would never fold, I think limping is pretty standard but I'm getting tired of people limping whatever trash they get dealt, I think I take down this pot more often than I take down a pot when I see a flop limping and people are like never limping big hands to trap now and usually aren't calling with small PPs.

Again I'm only doing this because my stack is too small to raise and c-bet comfortably, and because there are a ton of limpers.

Re: $16s- 25/50, 2 hands shoving over multiple limpers
 

have you had good results with open pushing aq/ak? what percentage of hands are you dominating an Ax, % seeing aa/kk, and % flipping?

Re: $16s- 25/50, 2 hands shoving over multiple limpers
 

These are pretty much the only times I have done it so I don't really have a sample to look at, but I think I like it in very similar spots, with less limpers I would never be pushing here though.

Re: $16s- 25/50, 2 hands shoving over multiple limpers
 

First one I think you need to fold. There are too many players behind you. Second hand I like a lot.

Re: $16s- 25/50, 2 hands shoving over multiple limpers
 

I really don't mind either.

Re: $16s- 25/50, 2 hands shoving over multiple limpers
 

I like this play too. Too often if you make a std raise with AK you'll get callers, cbet when you miss, get called, and you've invested 1/3rd of your stack in the early going in a pot you're not going to win. Plus with AK donks often call with hands we're crushing.

Re: $16s- 25/50, 2 hands shoving over multiple limpers
 

Why are people advising a fold with AQ?? I can understand not liking the all in but no one even limps it?

Re: $16s- 25/50, 2 hands shoving over multiple limpers
 

first one is bad, second hand is fine.

Re: $16s- 25/50, 2 hands shoving over multiple limpers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why are people advising a fold with AQ?? I can understand not liking the all in but no one even limps it?

[/ QUOTE ]

meh, aq is like the semi better version of aj :P

Re: $16s- 25/50, 2 hands shoving over multiple limpers
 

Not to mention the only difference when you hold AQ is they could be limping AK.. that basically never happens, at 25/50 especially. Other than that they are essentially the same in this situation.

I don't know why anyone wouldn't see a flop with AQ here though, it's a good hand.

Also for the first hand the only hands we don't want to see are AA/KK/QQ/AK.. so it isn't that likely that someone left to act is holding those, if they call with something else like JJ or whatever its fine.

Re: $16s- 25/50, 2 hands shoving over multiple limpers
 

i dont like either plays

learn how to play after the flop better.

Raise and play your hand from there.

Re: $16s- 25/50, 2 hands shoving over multiple limpers
 

2nd hand looks fine. I dont necessarily like pushing AQ here because you have 4 others behind you left to act.

Re: $16s- 25/50, 2 hands shoving over multiple limpers
 

[ QUOTE ]
i dont like either plays

learn how to play after the flop better.

Raise and play your hand from there.

[/ QUOTE ]

dude we have 30bb and people dislike limp folding if you raise to 350 or whatever.

2 limpers you make it 350 in position with 1400 stack, one caller.

Flop comes 952r pot is 775 you have 1100. How much postflop play is there to this hand? How exactly are you going to outplay your opponent?

I mean its pretty ugly just shoving BUT you almost certainly have the best hand vs limpers, you have a ton of FE AND they call with worse hands. I really have no problem with either push tbh.

However, my standard line is limp the first hand and raise the second one to 250.

Re: $16s- 25/50, 2 hands shoving over multiple limpers
 

[ QUOTE ]
i dont like either plays

learn how to play after the flop better.

Raise and play your hand from there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know how to play post flop, but I've stated a few times why this could be trouble in this situation. AQ should not be raised, if played either a shove or limp, so with AK if you raise you have to make it around 250. Your best case scenario is one caller, the pot is 600+ and a c-bet will cost somewhere around 400 which is half of your remaining stack. If you get multiple callers you can only play on flops you hit and you just waste a huge portion of your stack half the time when you miss. By raising you are creating a situation where you can't "play" postflop because of the size of the pot pf, you can only bet when you make a hand.

Shoving now is far more likely to take down the hand or get us into a dominating or at worst flipping situation (it will be AA/KK extremely rarely), I like this better than a 50% shot at losing 20-25% of our stack.

Re: $16s- 25/50, 2 hands shoving over multiple limpers
 

to me, going all in for 30 BBs behind no raise is pointless.

Re: $16s- 25/50, 2 hands shoving over multiple limpers
 

[ QUOTE ]
to me, going all in for 30 BBs behind no raise is pointless.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough, but just to understand your thinking..

I assume you raise atleast in the AK hand, so what is your raise size?

Obv getting no callers isn't a problem so with the new pot size with limpers and 1 caller how do you play when your hand misses the flop?

With multiple callers how do you play when your hand misses the flop?


Its easy to play if they all fold pf, or if you connect on the flop, but when you miss you are almost too deep to c-bet seeing in takes a large portion or all of your stack in the case of multiple callers. Seeing you miss the flop a huge percent of the time, are you just giving up your 250+ with a check/fold? If so this is why I think it is better to usually take down a smaller pot pf than go for a bigger one post flop.

Re: $16s- 25/50, 2 hands shoving over multiple limpers
 

I would call the AQ hand(may get berated),but a standart raise looks awful,I dont like the push either and calling looks a little bit better then folding.
The second is a push for me.

Re: $16s- 25/50, 2 hands shoving over multiple limpers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
to me, going all in for 30 BBs behind no raise is pointless.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough, but just to understand your thinking..

I assume you raise atleast in the AK hand, so what is your raise size?

Obv getting no callers isn't a problem so with the new pot size with limpers and 1 caller how do you play when your hand misses the flop?

With multiple callers how do you play when your hand misses the flop?


Its easy to play if they all fold pf, or if you connect on the flop, but when you miss you are almost too deep to c-bet seeing in takes a large portion or all of your stack in the case of multiple callers. Seeing you miss the flop a huge percent of the time, are you just giving up your 250+ with a check/fold? If so this is why I think it is better to usually take down a smaller pot pf than go for a bigger one post flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

like everything in poker, it depends. Its depends who your playing and how they are playing.

I don't think there is anything wrong with limping with AQ. In the AK hand I would probably raise to 250.

If I get the pot to heads up I'm continuation betting for prolly 350.

If I get two callers I may check behind on flop if I miss.

It just really depends on who the players are and what the texture of the flop is. Sometimes you just have to learn how to slow down and keep the pot small or take a free card, if you can.

That being said, I'd rather raise with AK, continuation bet the flop and be checked raised off my hand over going all in for 30 BB's. You gain very little with that play unless your opponents are willing to call you with AX a reasonable % of the time.

Re: $16s- 25/50, 2 hands shoving over multiple limpers
 

[ QUOTE ]
That being said, I'd rather raise with AK, continuation bet the flop and be checked raised off my hand over going all in for 30 BB's. You gain very little with that play unless your opponents are willing to call you with AX a reasonable % of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I guess thats the standard play, though I plan to stick with shoving.. I think at this level it is more important to maintain your stack (by taking down these chips) than to try for a big pot with all these limpers present, losing 250+ is horrible to your stack especially when blinds will soon be 50/100. We are deep, but so many people will not limp/fold here that it is the only way to get them off garbage hands that you don't want in a multiway pot.

I also do think getting called by weaker Ax hands will happen somewhat frequently which is also really good.