MSNL, Quick Help Me Write An Article
 

Hey guys.

I'm writing my next article for Bluff Magazine right now. It's due tonight.

It's kind of about common leaks amongst average-decent players. I have an idea of a few and how to fix them, but this is gonna be a 2 pager AND it comes out right around the time of the WSOP ME, so I want it to be good.

Can you guys list some common, important leaks that players have?

I can credit MSNL or you specifically in the article if I use your ideas, if that's up your alley.

Thanks.

Re: MSNL, Quick Help Me Write An Article
 

is this like a real altruistic article, or like tell them things to do and then we'll all know how to combat them ?

Re: MSNL, Quick Help Me Write An Article
 

Most players don't understand the importance of building pots and stack sizes need to play in making decisions.

For example I watched a hand in Tunica(2-5 NL) where you have to build a pot.
FLOP A5J
Player with A5 bets 25. Next player with AJ min raises. If the player with AJ makes a big raise he can probably get all the money in the pot on the flop. Instead the pot remained small.

After the hand the player said that he wanted to keep the player in the pot. However he didn't realize that he would have been better off betting as much as the next weakest hand could call.

Another standard error that I see all the time are players making calls that make no sense according to the stack sizes. For example calling off 25 dollars with a small pair in a heads up pot when they only have 100 dollars behind. The same problem is frequent when players are drawing and their opponents aren't giving them good odds or aren't deep enough to justify whatever play is made.

Re: MSNL, Quick Help Me Write An Article
 

hmmm off the top of my head

calling pfr's oop
game selection
br management
keeping ego in check

Re: MSNL, Quick Help Me Write An Article
 

calling too many reraises pf oop. this is by far biggest leak of all average to decent players.

Re: MSNL, Quick Help Me Write An Article
 

Calling to set mine far too often especially in 3 bet pots.

Playing back at other strong players too often instead of just sharing the fish.

Continuation betting too liberally

Re: MSNL, Quick Help Me Write An Article
 

giving PFR too much respect on the flop. playing too tight in position. not raising the turn enough.

Re: MSNL, Quick Help Me Write An Article
 

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hmmm off the top of my head

calling pfr's oop
game selection
br management
keeping ego in check

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Heh. I already covered two of these. We think alike.

Re: MSNL, Quick Help Me Write An Article
 

sucking

Re: MSNL, Quick Help Me Write An Article
 

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giving PFR too much respect on the flop. playing too tight in position. not raising the turn enough.

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These are really good, Pete. Actually, a lot of HSNL pros make these mistakes.

Re: MSNL, Quick Help Me Write An Article
 

playing showdown hands too aggressively
playing weak hands and hands that require fold equity too passively.

For instance, BTN raises, You have K3s in BB, if people tend to play it they would often call but should be raising. It's a pretty common situation that when people are opening their range they tend to be opening it up badly.

Re: MSNL, Quick Help Me Write An Article
 

Giving up on pots too easily.

Not value betting thinly enough.

Scratch that, don't write about those things, I want people to keep F'ing them up.

Re: MSNL, Quick Help Me Write An Article
 

>Betting to protect too often and to get value too rarely (esp pertinent to size of bets)

>Not getting thin value in huge pots (these river bets are really big even if they are only 1/3 pot)

>Calling raises and reraises OOP

>Bankroll management (being both too conservative and too aggressive - taking shots is good, going broke is not)

>Game selection and perhaps more importantly seat selection

>Making +EV bluffs where other lines have more value (like raising/re-raising in position instead of smooth calling - both pre and postflop)

Re: MSNL, Quick Help Me Write An Article
 

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hmmm off the top of my head

calling pfr's oop
game selection
br management
keeping ego in check

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I'd say these are pretty much covered by, oh, just about every poker article ever written.

Re: MSNL, Quick Help Me Write An Article
 

-not thinking creatively/actively about their game. A good example of this is cbetting too much just because cbetting is the thing to do when you're the pfr, but in general this is really important especially with how fast the games are changing these days.

-attacking good players constantly. If there are bad players at the table still to act why are people still 3betting other good players so lightly?

-not c/r enough on all streets

-many players are either always playing for pot control or always playing for max value when there should be a mix

Re: MSNL, Quick Help Me Write An Article
 

balancing the importance of position with the out of position donkbet

Re: MSNL, Quick Help Me Write An Article
 

People who 3-bet too much. Write an article about how 3-betting sucks, please.

Re: MSNL, Quick Help Me Write An Article
 

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balancing the importance of position with the out of position donkbet

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expand on this?

Re: MSNL, Quick Help Me Write An Article
 

Bad players think only about their own two cards. Better players think about their own, as well as others. Good players begin putting ranges on players. The best players think of not only what they are holding and what thier opponent can be holding, but also how they would play the other hands in their range at that given situation. I would think that many MSNL players analyze hands too much on an "in a vacuum" basis, instead of thinking of how their play meshes into their overall strategy to avoid being easily exploitable.

Ummm.. definitely not value betting thin as well as (and possibly even more important) not bluffing thin enough. Too many people check behind a river where they should bet for value, and even more people check behind a river just because their hand gains a little showdown value but they fail to realize that their fold equity on a bet has much more value.. its like a "I just wanna see what he has so I'll click check really quickly" mentality and you see it alot at MSNL...

When to fire/call 2nd and 3rd barrels is another very big one but I'm not gonna get into it..

Re: MSNL, Quick Help Me Write An Article
 

set mining with <100BB stacks and calling too much with position in reraised pots vs a TAG with a solid reraising range

Re: MSNL, Quick Help Me Write An Article
 

- not giving enough importance to position
- becoming a robot, too mechanic, not going through the whole thought process in every hand
- losing value
- understanding the how whens and whys of their image/choice of style

Re: MSNL, Quick Help Me Write An Article
 

I think a big leak for MSNL are making too many thin calls on non bluffy bets.

Re: MSNL, Quick Help Me Write An Article
 

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>Betting to protect too often and to get value too rarely

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Re: MSNL, Quick Help Me Write An Article
 

Bluff snapping leaks:

- Using hand strength as the primary variable in determining whether to snap off a bluff or not

- Intentionally underrepping one's hand in some way and then using that as an argument to never fold on future streets, instead of just taking it as one part of the call or fold equation

Draw play leaks:

- Choosing draw aggression on the basis of their outs, instead of examining the board/image and playing them as you would play the most likely made hand. Some boards will make a monster more effective to rep, some top pair.

Re: MSNL, Quick Help Me Write An Article
 

people don't respect big overbets...

Re: MSNL, Quick Help Me Write An Article
 

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people don't respect big overbets...

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What site do you play on? I would like to play there.

Re: MSNL, Quick Help Me Write An Article
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bluff snapping leaks:

- Using hand strength as the primary variable in determining whether to snap off a bluff or not

- Intentionally underrepping one's hand in some way and then using that as an argument to never fold on future streets, instead of just taking it as one part of the call or fold equation

Draw play leaks:

- Choosing draw aggression on the basis of their outs, instead of examining the board/image and playing them as you would play the most likely made hand. Some boards will make a monster more effective to rep, some top pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess nobody reads Bluff anyway so please write about this.

Re: MSNL, Quick Help Me Write An Article
 

not making thin enough value bets

leveling themselves, i do this alot and its a big mistake, most people are more straightforward then you think

id say say drawing too much, bluffinw w/o FE and 0 level thinking but you said good players so im defining that as someone who does those things properly...

Re: MSNL, Quick Help Me Write An Article
 

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Calling to set mine far too often especially in 3 bet pots.

Continuation betting too liberally vs fish

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QFT.

Re: MSNL, Quick Help Me Write An Article
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bluff snapping leaks:

- Using hand strength as the primary variable in determining whether to snap off a bluff or not

- Intentionally underrepping one's hand in some way and then using that as an argument to never fold on future streets, instead of just taking it as one part of the call or fold equation

Draw play leaks:

- Choosing draw aggression on the basis of their outs, instead of examining the board/image and playing them as you would play the most likely made hand. Some boards will make a monster more effective to rep, some top pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess nobody reads Bluff anyway so please write about this.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

Re: MSNL, Quick Help Me Write An Article
 

Jman, there are some pretty good ones here. One suggest would be to make a top 5 or top 10 list and explain each one. Obviously having an intro and a summary paragraph.

Re: MSNL, Quick Help Me Write An Article
 

Not properly thinking through hands.
Use the example of that hand at the Wynn between Older guy aka OG and some guy aka SG. Make sure to include S3's reaction.

Re: MSNL, Quick Help Me Write An Article
 

Jman,

Why are you writing articles for Bluff magazine?

Re: MSNL, Quick Help Me Write An Article
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bad players think only about their own two cards. Better players think about their own, as well as others. Good players begin putting ranges on players. The best players think of not only what they are holding and what thier opponent can be holding, but also how they would play the other hands in their range at that given situation. I would think that many MSNL players analyze hands too much on an "in a vacuum" basis, instead of thinking of how their play meshes into their overall strategy to avoid being easily exploitable.



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I like this one, but only if you don't take it too far. I mean, the unexploitable line is not always the best, especially against weaker players. Also, one thing about being exploitable. I have noticed a lot of MSNL players will make really big value bets when they have a monster hand but never on a bluff. This is a really funny leak to me that I have noticed in a lot of people. I mean it works on retards, but against other good players this is a huge tell.

Re: MSNL, Quick Help Me Write An Article
 

Thanks guys.

I had too much to say, so I wrote the first half of a 2 parter.

The first article is mostly focused on admitting you have leaks, how to identify them, and the explanation of a couple common ones.

The 2nd part will consist of a lot more examples, many from this thread. Thanks again.