3h, What do you do with?
 

Opponents are std (for stars lets say) in that they are probably small winners/losers, but nothing superstar either way (though they can beat fish). SD rates ~40, AGF mid 1.x, VPIP the std 50ish.

What do you do with the following hands in the BB to a BUR+SB3B?

Axs
Kxs


Call, Fold, Raise?

Re: 3h, What do you do with?
 

button raises and SB 3towns? all of these hands are folds.

Re: 3h, What do you do with?
 

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button raises and SB 3towns? all of these hands are folds.

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clear folds IMO. you are dominated here at least 80% of the time. obviousy A9s is better than A2s. keep in mind the button still can cap it pf after the sb 3 bets. why get involved? i like 87s in this spot a million times better.

Re: 3h, What do you do with?
 

i would be shocked if any high stakes player folds a2s here.

Re: 3h, What do you do with?
 

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you are dominated here at least 80% of the time.

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The above is far from true in my experience at the tables... hence the question.

Re: 3h, What do you do with?
 

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i would be shocked if any high stakes player folds a2s here.

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Some do, some don't... It is my opinion that there may be an issue of frequency involved with these types of hands.

Re: 3h, What do you do with?
 

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button raises and SB 3towns? all of these hands are folds.

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Why?

Re: 3h, What do you do with?
 

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i would be shocked if any high stakes player folds a2s here.

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i fold a2s here.

Re: 3h, What do you do with?
 

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i would be shocked if any high stakes player folds a2s here.

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Shocked? I'm pretty sure I'm not considered a nit and I easily muck A2s here. What are saying that most cap or call here. Either seems quite bad, for one your flop position sucks terribly.

Re: 3h, What do you do with?
 

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i would be shocked if any high stakes player folds a2s here.

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Shocked? I'm pretty sure I'm not considered a nit and I easily muck A2s here. What are saying that most cap or call here. Either seems quite bad, for one your flop position sucks terribly.

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Capping could fold the BU, leaving the BB capper with overlay + position + initiative?

Re: 3h, What do you do with?
 

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i would be shocked if any high stakes player folds a2s here.

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Shocked? I'm pretty sure I'm not considered a nit and I easily muck A2s here. What are saying that most cap or call here. Either seems quite bad, for one your flop position sucks terribly.

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Capping could fold the BU, leaving the BB capper with overlay + position + initiative?

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The button folds very rarely to the cap in my experience, I would much prefer capping t9s vs A2s here.

Re: 3h, What do you do with?
 

im like the loosest player ever and i fold most of these hands

Re: 3h, What do you do with?
 

I'd also be curious about 67s, 78s,...JTs, I think we can agree QJs is just getting capped every time.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 3h, What do you do with?
 

what about 22-66?

Re: 3h, What do you do with?
 

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i would be shocked if any high stakes player folds a2s here.

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wow, i'm folding all Axs and Kxs

Re: 3h, What do you do with?
 

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I'd also be curious about 67s, 78s,...JTs, I think we can agree QJs is just getting capped every time.

-DeathDonkey

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i usually just call a QJs or JTs type hand. i can see the merits to capping though, and i'm sure i do it "sometimes"

Re: 3h, What do you do with?
 

well i guess everyone just plays them when im in the sb then. proly profitable since im easy to beat.

Re: 3h, What do you do with?
 

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i would be shocked if any high stakes player folds a2s here.

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Shocked? I'm pretty sure I'm not considered a nit and I easily muck A2s here. What are saying that most cap or call here. Either seems quite bad, for one your flop position sucks terribly.

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Capping could fold the BU, leaving the BB capper with overlay + position + initiative?

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That is extremely wishful thinking IMO. Why would the button surrender his position 3 handed when he's already open-raised in a LHE game? There have been arguments made by LHE experts that 3 handed it is sometimes theoretically proper to straddle on the button every hand--although I do not completely agree with this, I think it would be idiotic for the button to fold to a cap in this spot.

I still think Axs and Kxs hands are folds here given the opponents you described. If you cap I guess you are praying you are up against QT and QJ or some middle pair to which you're not dominated. Doesn't sound very +Ev to me.

Re: 3h, What do you do with?
 

I realize that "x" implies a weak kicker, but at what value does the "x" become a cap against "typical" opponents? That's probably a better question.

A8s and K9s? Too loose/tight?

I can't imagine cold-calling any of these hands is ideal.

Re: 3h, What do you do with?
 

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button raises and SB 3towns? all of these hands are folds.

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Why?

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because you don't have anything and you are stuck in the middle between 2 guys and you are going to make bad-payoff hands when you hit and ugh i can't beleive this is really even a question.

Re: 3h, What do you do with?
 

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I realize that "x" implies a weak kicker, but at what value does the "x" become a cap against "typical" opponents? That's probably a better question.

A8s and K9s? Too loose/tight?

I can't imagine cold-calling any of these hands is ideal.

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i cap ATs and recently i capped A8s but i wasn't so sure about that one. of course it depends on who is on the sb and bu

Re: 3h, What do you do with?
 

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button raises and SB 3towns? all of these hands are folds.

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Why?

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because you don't have anything and you are stuck in the middle between 2 guys and you are going to make bad-payoff hands when you hit and ugh i can't beleive this is really even a question.

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Simply trying to start discussion. To do so, I must do a little devil's advocate [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 3h, What do you do with?
 

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button raises and SB 3towns? all of these hands are folds.

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Why?

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because you don't have anything and you are stuck in the middle between 2 guys and you are going to make bad-payoff hands when you hit and ugh i can't beleive this is really even a question.

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I think those of us that don't play at he highest stakes may not realize the super-wide-open-sometimes-any-two-card opening ranges that exist from certain players and therefore find it hard to fathom ever getting involved with often dominated hands. So I don't think the question is ridiculous. That being said I still don't want to get involved with any of these hands.

Re: 3h, What do you do with?
 

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I think those of us that don't play at he highest stakes may not realize the super-wide-open-sometimes-any-two-card opening ranges that exist from certain players and therefore find it hard to fathom ever getting involved with often dominated hands. So I don't think the question is ridiculous. That being said I still don't want to get involved with any of these hands.

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That is often a problem. You'll have a BU opening 70%+ and a SB 3B with 45-55% of his hands. Those times you fold Ax and see the BU w/93s and the SB w/K7o you just want to puke. It's not always that way, but it leads me to believe that there is some correct frequency to such calls and/or caps given certain game dynamics.

Re: 3h, What do you do with?
 

Seems like setting up some sort of way to totally randomize it would be best then? IE having a timer. If it falls between 0-20 seconds fold, 20-40 seconds call, 40-60 seconds raise?

I agree that there are games where folding these seems criminal.

Edit-Three handed I dont think button EVER folds.

Re: 3h, What do you do with?
 

Assuming SB adjusts to us, calling these for a while should tighten him up because he is then playing in the worst position into 2 player with weak hands.