100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

Opponent is Kvitto, he seems to play OK, defends his BB too much but is tighter than most heads up from the button. He's been c-betting most flops.


Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $100/$200 Blinds - 2 Players

<font color="black">MUCKEMSAYUHH (BB): $28,099.00</font>
SB: $19,122.50

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> MUCKEMSAYUHH is dealt 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB raises to $600.00</font>, MUCKEMSAYUHH calls $400.00

<font color="black">Flop:</font> ($1200) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
MUCKEMSAYUHH checks, <font color="red">SB bets $1,200.00</font>, <font color="red">MUCKEMSAYUHH raises to $3,600.00</font>, SB calls $2,400.00

<font color="black">Turn:</font> ($8400) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">MUCKEMSAYUHH bets $5,600.00</font>, SB calls $5,600.00

<font color="black">River:</font> ($19600) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">MUCKEMSAYUHH bets all-in for $9000 or so </font>

Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Opponent is Kvitto, he seems to play OK, defends his BB too much but is tighter than most heads up from the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

so the exact opposite of how he should be playing? hehe

This hand is standard yo, and I think checking the river is a mistake.

Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

looks good, moderately [censored] river, but with only a half psb, what else can you do?

Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

i probably would check the turn here, but as played i think you kinda have to shove the river to follow through on the potential bluff that he can catch with his AQ or whatever.

Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

DJ,

What exactly is the 'whatever' with his bluff catching here? I ask because it seems a bit far fetched to think that his opponent shows up with 88-JJ here too often. I think AQ is the only hand that may call that we beat.

This does not mean that I dont like the river bet....I just may be second guessing the turn play.

Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

std

Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
std

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Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

given how you made it to the river, cant see doing anything except pushing (check/fold being the 2nd best option).

on the turn i like betting 7500-8000ish (more than 1/2 your stack). psychologically i think it gets more value from AQ/TT type hands. or if i have been giving up often after my checkraise bluffs are called on the flop, i might checkraise/allin on the turn.

Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

very standard.

Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

DJ/locdog why would you check the turn? pot is big and he's checking back all worse hands

Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
DJ,

What exactly is the 'whatever' with his bluff catching here? I ask because it seems a bit far fetched to think that his opponent shows up with 88-JJ here too often. I think AQ is the only hand that may call that we beat.

This does not mean that I dont like the river bet....I just may be second guessing the turn play.

[/ QUOTE ]

well thats pretty much why i would check the turn. so i can get more value from hands i'm ahead of, and so i dont get owned by hands that i'm behind.

Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
on the turn i like betting 7500-8000ish (more than 1/2 your stack). psychologically i think it gets more value from AQ/TT type hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

solid point.

Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
DJ/locdog why would you check the turn? pot is big and he's checking back all worse hands

[/ QUOTE ]

sure, but is he regularly stacking off with QJ, JJ-88, or less when you fire turn and river? thats my real problem here. If he is, then sweet gogogo and fire all the way. If he'll get away from those hands to a turn bet (but probably call a river bet if the turn checks through) then i'd prefer to check the turn and solidify our chances of getting that river bet paid off.

Also, nobody seems to be considering the possibility that we're behind here. I do think most of the time we are ahead here, but if a big turn bet will stratify his range into {ahead calls, behind folds} then thats pretty bad for us with this type of hand.

Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

heh, sounds like somebody needs to work on his HU image...

Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

I didn't say I would necessarily check the turn.

I guess what I am saying is that come turn you are deciding whether your hand is value or bluff. The value on this hand I think comes on the turn. Given stack sizes, you are more likely to get paid off on the river the less the bet (obviously), so I would be making closer to a PSB on the turn in order to induce a call on the river more often. Conversely, I would be betting closer to 1/2 on the turn in order to make my river bet much more difficult to call with its increased size. Now my main goal is focused on folding out some weaker Kings.

In my first post, I question what hands your opponent may have come river that is calling that size turn bet that you beat, minus AQ here. How often does he really have a weaker K AND how often are we getting him to fold no matter how much we torque these stacks. It may just be a silly quibble of bucks.

Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

4k on flop, push turn.

Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
4k on flop, push turn.

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hmm I actually disagree especially on this type of board

Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

i just have a question. if we take this line, and push the turn and run into KQ, is this considered a cooler?

Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i just have a question. if we take this line, and push the turn and run into KQ, is this considered a cooler?


[/ QUOTE ]

yes. that would be SICK.

Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i probably would check the turn here.

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that seems really gross imho.

Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

i disagree that this is a standard play, i think it's on the sophisticated side and also think this hand is played very well.

Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

A turn shove is pretty appealing. It seems hard for him to get away from a queen.

Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

to those saying it's a turn shove- i think it's so levelage at this point.

i mean, does this guy think that 4k on the flop and a turn shove is more likely to be strong? is it more likely to be weak?

sometimes it's better to give guys two really strong bullets, sometimes it's better to give three weaker bullets. sometimes you use half pot 2/3 2/3 as a bluff, sometimes you use it for value.

it's all so opponenent dependant that i think it's v hard to quanitfy for a hand like this. in a vacuum, we can say what we like best, but without the flow of the game, we can't be sure.

what's pretty interesting here is how the dynamic changes from a bluff to value, which is why this hand isn't super standard.

Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

i like it.. i think shoving the turn is less correct and that he's going to call lighter on the river shove than the turn shove

Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

looks good, i might bet 4800 on the turn though and call a shove...i think you are ahead on river and like AJ said checking seems like a mistake

Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

I like it.

Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4k on flop, push turn.

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hmm I actually disagree especially on this type of board

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mmmm pot would be 9.2k ud have about 14.2k or something.. i can see plenty of argument for firing out like 4k and calling shove/pushing almost any river, and that seems more standard for sure, but i feel like this line looks so stupid weird that a queen is being like wtf wtf wtf? then calling every time. if u fire out 4k or whatever looks really milky blah blah etc etc queen might fold. its def not a common spot so a bunch of stuff could work i suppose.. i dont think i like checking tho.

Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

cts - are you able to talk about your plan for other turn cards? straight shutdown except for hearts?

Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
looks good, i might bet 4800 on the turn though and call a shove...i think you are ahead on river and like AJ said checking seems like a mistake

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if you check the river and he goes all in a fold is definitly worth considering

Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

good

Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

I think every street is great especially given cts's image. I like the bet sizing everywhere.

Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
looks good, i might bet 4800 on the turn though and call a shove...i think you are ahead on river and like AJ said checking seems like a mistake

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if you check the river and he goes all in a fold is definitly worth considering

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ya if I check river it's to check/fold

Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
cts - are you able to talk about your plan for other turn cards? straight shutdown except for hearts?

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well this is one of those 1 high card rainbow boards so it's a good one to bluff checkraise obv, and I try to mix it in when I have backdoor draws. Here the good cards for me are 3s, 4s, 5s, Ks, and hearts -- quite a decent portion of the deck -- and I could see continuing a semibluff (or value in this case, king) on a lot of these.

Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
4k on flop, push turn.

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meh I bluff these boards a lot so I try to keep my flop checkraises relatively cheap. Easy to get the money in when I've got a good hand anyways. In this hand the second the flop came I decided I was going to checkraise him, he had been firing $1000 into $1200 on most flops, but for some reason here he fired full pot. Normally when someone gives off a bet sizing tell like that here it's a strong hand so I def should have folded the flop I think but I was playing a bunch of tables and didn't really notice until I typed in my checkraise.

Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
A turn shove is pretty appealing. It seems hard for him to get away from a queen.

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I thought about doing this, and I don't think it's bad. Not really sure if I like it better though, I think ppl say "lol pot odds , calll" more often than "wowow big bet gotta be a bluff."

Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i just have a question. if we take this line, and push the turn and run into KQ, is this considered a cooler?

[/ QUOTE ]

it's one of those spots where I think on the turn you have to decide if you wanna check it down folding to any bets (maybe call one) or go to valuetown. Gonna run into better hands a decent amount of the time, but I think here with my image on this board going for value was a little better.

Re: 100/200nl hu sooo I hit my draw ?
 

anyways thanks for the responses guys, surprised some of you thought the hand was standard I thought it was reasonably interesting.

he thought for a while and folded the river