Poker and Cheating
 

Here's a post I gave to Iggy and I thought I would share.
Poker Cheats
TGIF.

Damn, I'm lucky. My main man, Johnny Hughes, sent me a stellar essay about poker and cheating specifically for you, gentle reader, that should provide some perspective.

Enjoy:

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Psychological research tells us we are predisposed to project our ethics on others. That means that if you are highly ethical, you expect others will be. Around gambling, that makes you a king-size chump and an all-day sucker. The recurring discussion of cheating on the Internet convinces me that the newer generation of gamblers are way too inclined to be gullible. The consensus of new poker player opinion seems to be that they wish everyone would be honest, like them. If wishes were horses, the beggars could bet.

Since Iggy reaches a discrete, learned audience that I can count on to keep my shared secrets in confidence, I will now discuss cheating. How many of the old-time gamblers cheated? That depends on what you call cheating. Many played partners. That upped your edge. Amarillo Slim, Sailor Roberts, and Doyle Brunson played out of the same bankroll for years and in the same game. So what?

Gamblers made moves at the table that were angles or not exactly allowed these days. Bill Smith was the World Champ of 1985. In the early days, he might hold out a card if he was drunk. Once J.C. stabbed him through the hand with an ice pick for that. I was in a pot with Bill once and the board showed five spades. He showed me the trey of spades and I threw my cards away. There was not a spade lower than a three on the board. I wouldn't get angry about a deal like that because I should have been rubbing my eyes.

Those young poker players were discussing Johnny Moss on a forum the other day. Some were indignant that he was not a fine role model. Poker players of that day were outlaws first, gamblers second, and poker players third. We were often arrested by all types of law enforcement for the simple card game you guys take for granted.

Cheating is rare in live games around professional gamblers. I wrote an article in this month's Bluff Magazine about catching Titanic Thompson's son cheating. Usually when a pro sees cheating, he does nothing except the old heel and toe out of there. Some of the most common cheating is in home games or college games. People short the pot, kill a few cards on the bottom of the deck, signal partners.

Now I am writing special for Iggy and his fuzzy-headed, idealistic, silver-lining devotees.

Big Rock Candy Mountain folks. Regardless of your complicated views of human nature, folks will cheat if they get the chance. Anybody you can cheat, I can beat on the square. I don't cheat for several reasons none remotely connected to ethics. A gambler's reputation is a tool of his trade. You word is your greatest asset. It is good business to be honest. When I first started running my own pot cut poker games, in high school, I realized the reputation of my spread was a major business asset.

In high school, this big football hero was marking the cards by biting them. I challenged him. That black eye did not go away for months. I met a guy in college who was very good at holding out. This is especially dangerous and they can do their moves on anybody's deal. He ended up barred around town.

Once a good friend and I checked out all the decks of cards at the Texas Tech Student Union. We'd check out a few decks at a time and mark them with a light blue or red daub. This was a laborious task. When we finished and checked them back in, we tried it out playing each other but we couldn't see the faint marks. We gave it the old college try.

James "Tennessee Longoodie" Roy was one of the top road gamblers for decades. His picture is in Doyle's SuperSystem Book at the first two world series. He was one fine hold 'em player but he'd shoot an angle like the best of them. One time Longoodie and I were in a four handed game with two suckers. We threw in together, partners. We were ducking each other to get a go at the live ones. It was just getting daylight and the game had gone on eighteen hours. The live ones had been nipping and were drunk and really tired. We figured one of us would get them pretty quick.

Now a pot a show horse couldn't jump over comes up between the two live ones with me and Goodie on the sidelines. It looks like one of them is about to bust the other one and break up the game. We played with paper currency. When a game had gone on that long, there were big stacks of money with lots of ones, five, twenties. Goodie was dealing and they got all their money in right after the flop. They were both drawing and they stood up to see the last two cards. They guy that had a little money left stuck it in his pocket so we knew the game was all over. Both guys missed their hands and thought they had lost the pot. They both put on their coats and left. The pot was just sitting there in the middle of the table. We were playing in this old, whore-house, motel. Me and Goodie were peeking out the window at these two guys who were talking outside. Finally, they got in separate cars and left. Me and Goodie cut up that pot like a boarding house pie. What would you have done, Iggy? Huh??

The culture and behavior standards of poker have changed. It's still an outlaw proposition in the Lone Star State. If there's a way to cheat, folks will find it. I'd bet my case dough there are little three-way teams on free long distance destroying the Internet games and tournaments. Tell me there are not. Hey, Iggy?

Johnny Hughes

Re: Poker and Cheating
 

[ QUOTE ]
Goodie was dealing and they got all their money in right after the flop. They were both drawing and they stood up to see the last two cards. They guy that had a little money left stuck it in his pocket so we knew the game was all over. Both guys missed their hands and thought they had lost the pot. They both put on their coats and left. The pot was just sitting there in the middle of the table. We were playing in this old, whore-house, motel. Me and Goodie were peeking out the window at these two guys who were talking outside. Finally, they got in separate cars and left. Me and Goodie cut up that pot like a boarding house pie. What would you have done, Iggy? Huh??



[/ QUOTE ]

Am I crazy for finding this hard to believe? Both of them would get up and walk away from the massive pot when they were the only 2 in the hand???

I can see them thinking they chop (I can even see the 2 players telling them they chop even if one highcards the other) but thinking the money stays there, wtf?

Re: Poker and Cheating
 

cheating is bad

you could get kicked out of school and have your life ruined

true story!

Re: Poker and Cheating
 

They were both drunk and tired. It was one of the most incredible deals I have ever seen. That's why I chose it to write about. You are right, it is hard to believe. I write fiction based on favorite poker stories but I wouldn't use that. Truth is stranger...

I should have written that my main reason for not cheating was fear of my tough opponents in West Texas. The guys who did cheat were tough or had guns and expected trouble. It is almost impossible to cheat at poker if everyone is watching with suspiction.

Re: Poker and Cheating
 

Speaking of long shots. One night my friend, E.W., was taking speed and a bit paranoid. He mentioned that the rest of the poker game might be ganging up on him. Right after that, he caught a blank playing card which freaked him. It was the only blank playing card I have ever seen. We played with paper Bee Brand Diamond Backs. I'd go and buy a red and a blue deck every day when I ran a little game. What are the odds on a blank playing card?

Re: Poker and Cheating
 

How did they both leave?
I mean, one person got up and leave.
The second one left the pot there and went away too?
Or they both left at the same time not realising the pot is still there?
The truth can be strange but this is just impossible.

Re: Poker and Cheating
 

I bet anybody that has played much live NL has witnessed a player lose an all in (where they cover the other player) and immediately walk off having no idea they have money left. I have seen this countless times and it always amazes me.

Re: Poker and Cheating
 

The writing isn't very good and the poker described is just plain confusing.

Re: Poker and Cheating
 

[ QUOTE ]
In high school, this big football hero was marking the cards by biting them. I challenged him. That black eye did not go away for months. I met a guy in college who was very good at holding out. This is especially dangerous and they can do their moves on anybody's deal. He ended up barred around town.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry... He was biting the cards????

Also, pardon my ignorance, but what is "holding out"?

Re: Poker and Cheating
 

[ QUOTE ]
In the early days, he might hold out a card if he was drunk. Once J.C. stabbed him through the hand with an ice pick for that. I was in a pot with Bill once and the board showed five spades. He showed me the trey of spades and I threw my cards away. There was not a spade lower than a three on the board. I wouldn't get angry about a deal like that because I should have been rubbing my eyes.

[/ QUOTE ]

again... "hold out a card"?

I wouldn't get angry about a deal like that because I should have been rubbing my eyes

what?

Re: Poker and Cheating
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In high school, this big football hero was marking the cards by biting them. I challenged him. That black eye did not go away for months. I met a guy in college who was very good at holding out. This is especially dangerous and they can do their moves on anybody's deal. He ended up barred around town.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry... He was biting the cards????

Also, pardon my ignorance, but what is "holding out"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Holding out cards from the game to be brought back in at a more opportune time

Re: Poker and Cheating
 

A real-life B&M example of a holdout...

New dealer comes into the box and notices something under the chips of a guy playing out of a rack. She makes the guy move the rack and by golly there's a card. He claimed innocence and swore he had no idea how that card got there.

Surveillance ran the tapes and the claim was the guy made a very deliberate and obvious move maybe 10 minutes earlier. While everybody's eyes were focused elsewhere, he just moved his entire rack forward to cover that card and then pulled it back. Then mucked his lone remaining card. They were 100% convinced it was no accident.

The red-faced gentlemen was sent packing with a trespass order barring him from entering any Harrah's property anywhere ever again. He was also a hotel guest and was forced to leave the hotel as well.

Re: Poker and Cheating
 

[ QUOTE ]
cheating is bad

you could get kicked out of school and have your life ruined

true story!

[/ QUOTE ]

elab?? [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]

Re: Poker and Cheating
 

Thanks for the post Johnny. I am one of those idealists... when i first moved to Seattle in 04 a friend of mine taught me to play poker and we have been playing together ever since. He is a pretty good player when remotely sober, but he constantly suspects everyone else at the table is cheating. I am an honest guy who never cheated at anything so i never could understand why i thought my friend always thought everyone else was. I watched carefully at casinos and private games for colluding players, card watchers, guys marking cards etc. Only at a couple home games have i ever noticed some shady angle shots happening.

Then one day i am playing in a game with my friend... its a 2/4 400NL game and everyone else at the table is an arrogant poker know it all. It was a nitty, but totally beatable game straight up. During this game i caught my friend cheating no less than 4 times. I saw him peeking at cards as he dealt them, i caught him peeking at neighbors cards, i caught him shorting pots while making change, etc etc (i kept my mouth shut until after). It then dawned on me, that poker has this in common with relationships. Cheaters, always assume everyone else is cheating. In my 3 short years playing poker i have seen only a couple guys cheating... the vast majority of younger / newer players play the game fairly. I am pretty paranoid and i pay close attention, even when i am drinking, even when i am tired.

The best advice i can give is if you suspect anything shady going down get up and leave. End of story. When i play in new games i keep my bankroll hidden and bring two buy ins in with me so that if i go to leave and there is some sort of objection or someones threatens me i can just give up the money and walk away. There are plenty of honest games in the world.

Also, i made this saying up, but it has held true since i started playing poker (no offense intended)... "at a poker table be wary of any man wearing cowboy boots."

Re: Poker and Cheating
 

Mr Hughes is the most underrated (questionable) / my favorite poster on 2+2. AINEC.

proud fanboy.

Re: Poker and Cheating
 

The solution to the crooked games is to allow handguns in casinos.

Re: Poker and Cheating
 

I think in thew modern playing age its very common for players to collude without knowing it. people naturally alter their play when a friend is in the pot or they are on a shared roll with someone. they may be doing this without intentionally trying to gain an edge. I still stand by my accusations, even stronger than before that the neverwin/chantel hand from a hs lhe post of mine was in fact collusion. while I do suspect that neverwins motives were the intent of collusion, I do not accuse him of realizing that what he was doing was in fact collusion. I think this specific hand is a good example of what can and will happen when players play under shared bankrolls even if they intend to play with the utmost integrity.

also, in this day and age, its quite common to find someone pull off an angle shoot. I've seen this happen most often in ac where the majority of players are long time casino veterans and not so much a part of the new internet breed. its also very common for players to manipulate an agreement to gain an unfair edge. an example of this would be that everyone agrees to straddle and a player doesn't straddle out on a bathroom break and doesn't straddle in when he returns, but instead posts behind. in most cases I think these people reali1 that they've gained an unfair edge but they always pretend that they don't know better. of course, I'm always the one to come off looking like a nit for calling them out on it.