How good is Tim Duncan?
 

As a player historically, that is (not just at his position). I've been having a debate on another thread, so thought I would see where everyone here would place him among some all time greats:

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

In terms of what? Player greatness? Value? Ability? Numbers?

He is behind Jordan and Magic and ahead of Malone, Barkley and KG. Duncan vs. Bird is an interesting debate that we did a little while ago.

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

Player greatness, I suppose, since it can be argued (not that I neccesarily agree) that Center/Forward types are inherently more valuable than Gaurd/SF types.

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

Go look at KG's numbers (I remember we discussed it here once). KG vs. TD is pretty damn close.

-Al

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

Yeah, I had him better than Malone, Barkley, and KG, but I think Barkley and KG are closer to a push.

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Go look at KG's numbers (I remember we discussed it here once). KG vs. TD is pretty damn close.

-Al

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think if you put KG in TD's place you get the exact same results. Do you think KG's poor results are just a result of where he's been playing? I know the SA front office is much better than the Minnesota, but I also think TD is a better overall player. Yes KG has sicker stats, but I'd more then willing to put my team on TD's shoulders in the playoffs and less willing to put on KG's, atleast from what I've seen in the past. KG is 1 sick NBA player, I just think the big fundamental is better suited to winning by his playing style.

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

Capone - oh I think TD is clearly someone I'd prefer to have on my team, I don't even like KG.

Back when we discussed this, I think it was MWII who hit upon a good point that Duncan is just, overall, a much more efficient player and that style is suited to winning games (vs. KG who goes all out and doesn't really pick and choose his spots well, which may, in the end calculus, overall hurt his team's chance of winning).

That's obviously subjective though... I was just pointing out that KG's numbers are incredibly sick.

-Al

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

The one good squad KG played on (w/ Cassell and Spree), KG was pretty sick in the playoffs.

I still would bet on Duncan in the playoffs though. I tend to agree with Simmons on both players. Duncan is absolutely sick, but it's a shame we've never seen KG with a great franchise so we could really see what the guy could do.

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Go look at KG's numbers (I remember we discussed it here once). KG vs. TD is pretty damn close.

-Al

[/ QUOTE ]

Sports Guy wrote this week that in 15 years, some stats guy will run the #'s and conclude that KG > TD, and he will be wrong. looks like he underestimated it by a few years [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Go look at KG's numbers (I remember we discussed it here once). KG vs. TD is pretty damn close.

-Al

[/ QUOTE ]

Sports Guy wrote this week that in 15 years, some stats guy will run the #'s and conclude that KG > TD, and he will be wrong. looks like he underestimated it by a few years [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha actually True Hoop references this.

I think a big part of Duncan > KG is part of the efficiency thing MWII mentioned. He's just an incredibly smart player, you never see him doing something stupid, and he always seems in control. I can't stand him but I would absolutely trust him in any situation on the court.

-Al

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

Didn't read rest of thread, but if he wins the title this year, he's probably the top 4 ever. (He insists he's a 4 not a 5... whatev, the competition is not as great there.)

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

Larry Bird's mind was so focused that he would attain jhana levels of concentration so deep that he would just slow the game down to frame by frame, one hoop dharma at a time. In Larry's mind, 48 minutes of basketball would take about a month and a half.

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

Haha true from what I've seen.

I've always put (of those listed above) Jordan, Magic and Bird in a class of their own (obvi Jordan leads the pack, but it's really, really close imo).

-Al

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

KG has never had anyone around him. Like previously said, the one year he had a decent supporting cast (2004) he tore it up. His playoff numbers were 24, 14, and 5 over 15 games. That's pretty comparable to Duncan's and pretty sick. As far as how clutch he was, I dont remember exactly, but supporting casts cant be underestimated, IMO.

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I had him better than Malone, Barkley, and KG, but I think Barkley and KG are closer to a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I voted the same. Also, I think Malone and Garnett are pretty close too, looking at the numbers. However, KG never had a John Stockton to facilitate his scoring.

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Larry Bird's mind was so focused that he would attain jhana levels of concentration so deep that he would just slow the game down to frame by frame, one hoop dharma at a time. In Larry's mind, 48 minutes of basketball would take about a month and a half.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know what I need in my life? More masturbatory posts.

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

It's not really fair to compare KG and TD using raw numbers because of pace.

Also, TD is a better defensive player.

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Didn't read rest of thread, but if he wins the title this year, he's probably the top 4 ever. (He insists he's a 4 not a 5... whatev, the competition is not as great there.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh no, Jordan, Magic, Shaq, Russel, Wilt, Kareem, Bird. I guess he's debatable with the last 2 but I can't imagine a top 5 list that has Duncan in it.

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's not really fair to compare KG and TD using raw numbers because of pace.

Also, TD is a better defensive player.

[/ QUOTE ]

not like KG is a slouch defensively, they are pretty close there as well

both are 31, but KG has 181more games played

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

He means top "4", as in power forward.

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

[ QUOTE ]
He means top "4", as in power forward.

[/ QUOTE ]

My mistake, I think hes already there for what its worth.

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Go look at KG's numbers (I remember we discussed it here once). KG vs. TD is pretty damn close.

-Al

[/ QUOTE ]

Sports Guy wrote this week that in 15 years, some stats guy will run the #'s and conclude that KG > TD, and he will be wrong. looks like he underestimated it by a few years [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha actually True Hoop references this.

I think a big part of Duncan > KG is part of the efficiency thing MWII mentioned. He's just an incredibly smart player, you never see him doing something stupid, and he always seems in control. I can't stand him but I would absolutely trust him in any situation on the court.

-Al

[/ QUOTE ]

Al,

Free throws?

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

You need an option to view results, otherwise you get a lot of noise in the results.
edit: lol, no one ever beats the holy trinity.

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

Mano, I'm glad you made this post. Since nobody was commenting on that other thread I thought everyone just agreed Duncan was better than Magic and Bird. I thought everyone had lost their mind.

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Go look at KG's numbers (I remember we discussed it here once). KG vs. TD is pretty damn close.

-Al

[/ QUOTE ]

Sports Guy wrote this week that in 15 years, some stats guy will run the #'s and conclude that KG > TD, and he will be wrong. looks like he underestimated it by a few years [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha actually True Hoop references this.

I think a big part of Duncan > KG is part of the efficiency thing MWII mentioned. He's just an incredibly smart player, you never see him doing something stupid, and he always seems in control. I can't stand him but I would absolutely trust him in any situation on the court.

-Al

[/ QUOTE ]

Al,

Free throws?

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha my wording above was overly broad - I guess I meant more an on-court situation he has alot of control over (obviously he'd prefer Manu or someone be shooting FTs at end of games). Though actually, I was curious and checked out the "Clutch Free Throwing Stats" at 82games (measures increase in FT% over "non clutch" situations) - Duncan's Up There

PokerFink - I'm not sure if pace is the best argument when thinking about KG vs. Duncan. Maybe I'm off, but while Spurs are obviously historically a low-possession team, I don't remember KG's peak Minny teams as being particularly high-pace.

-Al

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You need an option to view results, otherwise you get a lot of noise in the results.
edit: lol, no one ever beats the holy trinity.

[/ QUOTE ]

That may be true, but I think viewing the results first throws in bias, and I did not want to be accused of biasing results (hopefully the noise is uniform) - that is why I am not commenting for a while (I probably should have ordered the names differently too - my bad).

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's not really fair to compare KG and TD using raw numbers because of pace.

Also, TD is a better defensive player.

[/ QUOTE ]

not like KG is a slouch defensively, they are pretty close there as well

both are 31, but KG has 181more games played

[/ QUOTE ]

Duncan was NBA ready when he entered. KG came striaght out from HS and had a relatively bad rookie year.

KG's D is not bad. But Duncan's D is awesome. If Duncan's offensive numbers suck, he'd probably be Defense Player of the Year a couple of times.

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

[ QUOTE ]
PokerFink - I'm not sure if pace is the best argument when thinking about KG vs. Duncan. Maybe I'm off, but while Spurs are obviously historically a low-possession team, I don't remember KG's peak Minny teams as being particularly high-pace.

-Al

[/ QUOTE ]

The Twolves have been all over the place in terms of pace over Garnett's career. On average, they have played significantly faster than Duncan's Spurs. Interesting to note though, Garnett's 2 best years (03-04 and 04-05) were the years where Minnesota was playing at a San Antonio like pace (well, not quite, but close enough). I personally go with Duncan in this one. Duncan and Garnett are the same age (within like a month of each other if I remember right), so it makes it super convenient comparing their stats in a given year (Don't have to adjust for age). While Garnett has played more games by virtue of coming in so young his longevity isn't great enough to overcome the gap betwewen he and Duncan. While Garnett's peak may have been a little better (his MVP year was probably the best year either of them have ever had), Duncan has been more consistently dominant, and his peak during his peak (the same 2 years as Garnett's) he was right behind Garnett as the second best player in the league. Throw out 2005-2006, when everyone acknowledges Duncan had pretty serious foot injury (and even with it, he was still damn good), Duncan is working on a 6 year prime that is stellar.

Add to that the fact that Duncan's defensive ratings for his entire career have been insanely consistent and good (he's almost always at about a 94), and I think it's Duncan pretty convincingly.

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Larry Bird's mind was so focused that he would attain jhana levels of concentration so deep that he would just slow the game down to frame by frame, one hoop dharma at a time. In Larry's mind, 48 minutes of basketball would take about a month and a half.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know what I need in my life? More masturbatory posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Philip Rivers is 6'5''.

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He means top "4", as in power forward.

[/ QUOTE ]

My mistake, I think hes already there for what its worth.

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of people do now, and it looks like any attempts to get people to realize he's a center just aren't going to work.

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

Barkley and Malone never get enough respect. Must be due to the "rings" . . .

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

I think Duncan definitely > Barkley, but Malone was good for longer than almost anyone else, the guy was a top 5 player in the league for 13 seasons or something ridiculous like that (and all star caliber for like 3 on top of that 13+).

Sick.

Duncan's only got 9 seasons like that, max.

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think Duncan definitely > Barkley, but Malone was good for longer than almost anyone else, the guy was a top 5 player in the league for 13 seasons or something ridiculous like that (and all star caliber for like 3 on top of that 13+).

Sick.

Duncan's only got 9 seasons like that, max.

[/ QUOTE ]

People rate Malone lower because he routinely disappeared during "crunch time" and when plays seemed to matter the most. He never really handled intense pressure well.

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Larry Bird's mind was so focused that he would attain jhana levels of concentration so deep that he would just slow the game down to frame by frame, one hoop dharma at a time. In Larry's mind, 48 minutes of basketball would take about a month and a half.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good Lord! An entire season must have been a real bitch for Larry, that is like a decade. I can't even imagine what his career felt like...130 years, man to be able to battle through that, what a true G.

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

That's why he got old fast man. Have you seen him lately? The Legend is in rough shape.

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

In the end basketball is all about entertainment for me with winning being part of the entertainment factor but only in the sense that it adds more legitimacy to the game compared to some streetball competition or all star game. Using this metric TD is the absolute worst good player of all time. Duncan's teams are like the mid 90's Devils of basketball. It's not because he a bad guy and you can't blame the spurs for playing their style, but the sport is probably less popular because of him and the spurs and IMO you can't say that about any other true superstar in the league today or as long as I remember. Even if TD is a better or more efficient basketball player, if I was running a franchise and had any interest in anything other than winning an NBA title I would prefer any of the other players listed, especially since they were all toss-ups with TD in their primes.

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Didn't read rest of thread, but if he wins the title this year, he's probably the top 4 ever. (He insists he's a 4 not a 5... whatev, the competition is not as great there.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh no, Jordan, Magic, Shaq, Russel, Wilt, Kareem, Bird. I guess he's debatable with the last 2 but I can't imagine a top 5 list that has Duncan in it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have Duncan in my top 5 ever. I think hes really underrated because hes not flashy. But hes such a great all around player. Bird and Magic were marginal defenders and don't belong with the rest of the players you listed imo because of that. But I already went through all of this in the Official Steve Nash thread, so I'll stop there.

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Mano, I'm glad you made this post. Since nobody was commenting on that other thread I thought everyone just agreed Duncan was better than Magic and Bird. I thought everyone had lost their mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Trust me, I fully realize that I'm in the minority. Nearly EVERYBODY loves the players from the 80s just like you guys do.

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's not really fair to compare KG and TD using raw numbers because of pace.

Also, TD is a better defensive player.

[/ QUOTE ]

not like KG is a slouch defensively, they are pretty close there as well

both are 31, but KG has 181more games played

[/ QUOTE ]

Duncan was NBA ready when he entered. KG came striaght out from HS and had a relatively bad rookie year.

KG's D is not bad. But Duncan's D is awesome. If Duncan's offensive numbers suck, he'd probably be Defense Player of the Year a couple of times.

[/ QUOTE ]

To just say "not bad" severely underrates KG's defense:

1999-00 NBA All-Defense (1st)
2000-01 NBA All-Defense (1st)
2001-02 NBA All-Defense (1st)
2002-03 NBA All-Defense (1st)
2003-04 NBA All-Defense (1st)
2004-05 NBA All-Defense (1st)
2005-06 NBA All-Defense (2nd)
2006-07 NBA All-Defense (2nd)



With all that said, I do agree that Duncan is a better defender.

Re: How good is Tim Duncan?
 

I would say Malone destroys Duncan, and Barkley is quite close.