5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

Pretty basic hand, but I want to hear some opinions.

Villain is ~80/10/1.5 over 35 hands. Small sample, but he obviously sucks at life.

5/10 6-max

MP ($714.25)
Button ($1813)
Hero ($1101.50)
BB ($453)
UTG ($1420)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls $10, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $50</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls $40.

Flop: ($110) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $85</font>, MP calls $85.

Turn: ($280) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets $280</font>, Hero?

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

he still raises JJ+ pf.

I don't see what pays you off other than 66-99. I think it is much more likely to be 45, A4, 34, 44, 55, 33, and other random 4's since he VPIPs 80% (albeit a small sample).

I fold.

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

Lol anyone who folds this is quite possibly the biggest pussy in the history of the world. He plays [censored] 80% of his hands and we have a pretty big overpair! wtf. Either bet/call the turn or crai.

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

stackadonk. this clown isn't even full stacked.

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

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Lol anyone who folds this is quite possibly the biggest pussy in the history of the world. He plays [censored] 80% of his hands and we have a pretty big overpair! wtf. Either bet/call the turn or crai.

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what do you expect him to call with? do you expect villian to usually fold? I don't see how were ahead, hes trying to get his stack in on the river i think.

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

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what do you expect him to call with?

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2 cards.

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

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Lol anyone who folds this is quite possibly the biggest pussy in the history of the world. He plays [censored] 80% of his hands and we have a pretty big overpair! wtf. Either bet/call the turn or crai.

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what do you expect him to call with? do you expect villian to usually fold? I don't see how were ahead, hes trying to get his stack in on the river i think.

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Ok, I repeat, he plays 80% of his hands and is obviously a retard. Nuff said.

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

i understand that. im questioning you because i read a ton of threads and often disagree with what you have to say.

anyways, 80% of his hands saw a flop, i dont get how this equals 80% of his hands potting the turn on a ragged board. I understand I'm in the minority here but I don't quite see it.

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

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i understand that. im questioning you because i read a ton of threads and often disagree with what you have to say.

anyways, 80% of his hands saw a flop, i dont get how this equals 80% of his hands potting the turn on a ragged board. I understand I'm in the minority here but I don't quite see it.

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So you fold AA here then right?

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

ben what stakes do you play?

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

ohhh i get it now. tt=aa.
thanks

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

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i understand that. im questioning you because i read a ton of threads and often disagree with what you have to say.

anyways, 80% of his hands saw a flop, i dont get how this equals 80% of his hands potting the turn on a ragged board. I understand I'm in the minority here but I don't quite see it.

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80/10/1.5 is insanely aggressive. He pots the turn with anything. if anything his big turn bet makes me even more secure we are ahead.

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

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ohhh i get it now. tt=aa.
thanks

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Not quite, but they're pretty similar. Thinking that an 80% vpip guy has a very strong range here is a huge leak imo.

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

if your bankroll which iam sure you are.. puuush it [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

its 70bb's... if he had 170... now we have an interesting situation

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

lol, I thought the board was 2345 and I was still thinking our hand was too strong to fold

now that I've reread the board, this is an easy shove

btw, why is the decision between raising or folding? I would certainly prefer a call to a fold

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

i would just keep betting. he can't call off his stack with A3 or 77 if you don't keep betting. as played, i think crai or call would be ok, but i'd prefer crai. there are a lot of very ugly cards that can come.

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

push, he'll call with any pair and he's short. i would've bet the turn though.

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

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ohhh i get it now. tt=aa.
thanks

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Not quite, but they're pretty similar. Thinking that an 80% vpip guy has a very strong range here is a huge leak imo.

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i've got to agree. imo this psb has turned his hand face up as a small pair that is afraid of overs. also, the only difference b/t TT and AA here is that he has 3 extra outs if he's got like A5. also, if this guy is that bad, should be considering a wheel?

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

I think bet/call would have been better on the turn. I large portion of his range is draws (this kind of donk could be calling with gutshots).

As played, I prefer C/RAI to c/c because there are many bad cards that can come on the river.

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

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if this guy is that bad, should be considering a wheel?

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LOL. I don't know if there is much more to be discussed here so results...

Obv I shoved so that Jay wouldn't call me a pussy, and he flipped up 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] for a completed gutterball and a new found flush draw.

I just needed a sanity check; thanks for the responses.

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

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if this guy is that bad, should be considering a wheel?

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LOL. I don't know if there is much more to be discussed here so results.

Obv I shoved so that Jay wouldn't call me a pussy, and he flipped up 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] for a completed gutterball and a new found flush draw.

I just needed a sanity check; thanks for the responses.

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sorry, i meant wheel draw, not made wheel.

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

If he is the type like most donks to bet the pot when you check to him you might do better to check/call and check the river (and obviously call just about any river) IMO. It's more likely he has complete nothing here than a hand he can call your shove with.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

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i understand that. im questioning you because i read a ton of threads and often disagree with what you have to say.

anyways, 80% of his hands saw a flop, i dont get how this equals 80% of his hands potting the turn on a ragged board. I understand I'm in the minority here but I don't quite see it.

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So you fold AA here then right?

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AA is the same as TT in this spot

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

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if this guy is that bad, should be considering a wheel?

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LOL. I don't know if there is much more to be discussed here so results...

Obv I shoved so that Jay wouldn't call me a pussy, and he flipped up 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] for a completed gutterball and a new found flush draw.

I just needed a sanity check; thanks for the responses.

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Did he stick around or hit and run?

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

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i would just keep betting.

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Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

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Did he stick around or hit and run?

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He stuck around, but I had to quit about 5 mins later [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

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Lol anyone who folds this is quite possibly the biggest pussy in the history of the world. He plays [censored] 80% of his hands and we have a pretty big overpair! wtf. Either bet/call the turn or crai.

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what do you expect him to call with? do you expect villian to usually fold? I don't see how were ahead, hes trying to get his stack in on the river i think.

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Ok, I repeat, he plays 80% of his hands and is obviously a retard. Nuff said.

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I'm not saying we shouldn't play the hand in the way you suggest I think we should. I just disagree that 35 hands is enough to make any kind of overall assumption about how this guy plays. He probably is terrible b/c he has been limping and playing most pots but to immediately say he is a donk b/c he played like garbage for 35 hands is a bad idea especially versus people who tilt.

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

35 hands is plenty to figure out that someone sucks if they are playing 80/10.

And anyone that plays like that due to tilt is probably halfway tilted 90% of the time anyway...

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

80 vpip hahahahahah alll in.

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

This one is tough and highly player dependent. If the player always bets the turn here then you have to pay it off sometimes, checkraising allin here. Other times you can just fold. This time it might be worth paying off.

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

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80/10/1.5 is insanely aggressive. He pots the turn with anything.

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This was the funniest I have read in a long time.. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

I have to agree with Jay here. stack it.

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

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80/10/1.5 is insanely aggressive. He pots the turn with anything. if anything his big turn bet makes me even more secure we are ahead.

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how is 80/10/1.5 insanely aggressive?? to me it looks like a passive fish who likes to see flops with any 2.

edit: oh. am being leveled...

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

lol hes not levelling.

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

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80/10/1.5 is insanely aggressive. He pots the turn with anything. if anything his big turn bet makes me even more secure we are ahead.

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how is 80/10/1.5 insanely aggressive?? to me it looks like a passive fish who likes to see flops with any 2.

edit: oh. am being leveled...

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1.5 AF for an 80 vpip is ridiculously aggressive, you have to understand that AF's are all relative to your vpip/pfr. If you play 15/12, a 1.5 AF is very passive. If you play 80% of your hands, now 1.5 AF is through the roof in aggression.

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

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80/10/1.5 is insanely aggressive. He pots the turn with anything. if anything his big turn bet makes me even more secure we are ahead.

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how is 80/10/1.5 insanely aggressive?? to me it looks like a passive fish who likes to see flops with any 2.

edit: oh. am being leveled...

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1.5 AF for an 80 vpip is ridiculously aggressive, you have to understand that AF's are all relative to your vpip/pfr. If you play 15/12, a 1.5 AF is very passive. If you play 80% of your hands, now 1.5 AF is through the roof in aggression.

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can you explain what you mean more? the aggression number doesn't include preflop, right?

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

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can you explain what you mean more? the aggression number doesn't include preflop, right?

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I really hope I am not being levelled here.

The numbers do not include preflop. What he is referring to, I believe, is that villain is betting with VERY marginal holdings. If he brings ~80% of his hands to the flop, and then bets 1.5 times as often as he calls, he is obviously betting some very weak hands. If you compare this to someone who only brings the top 15% of his hands to a flop, and then bets with the same frequency, he is obviously calling/checking with a lot stronger holdings than the first villain.

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

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can you explain what you mean more? the aggression number doesn't include preflop, right?

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I really hope I am not being levelled here.

The numbers do not include preflop. What he is referring to, I believe, is that villain is betting with VERY marginal holdings. If he brings ~80% of his hands to the flop, and then bets 1.5 times as often as he calls, he is obviously betting some very weak hands. If you compare this to someone who only brings the top 15% of his hands to a flop, and then bets with the same frequency, he is obviously calling/checking with a lot stronger holdings than the first villain.

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no, you're not being leveled.

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If he brings ~80% of his hands to the flop, and then bets 1.5 times as often as he calls, he is obviously betting some very weak hands

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how do we know this? he might be betting 3% of flops and calling 2%, or he might be betting 60% and calling 40%. we don't know if he's betting weak hands.

this is why i think aggro factor would be more useful if it stayed broken up between betting and calling instead of dividing one by the other.

Re: 5/10 - Stack-a-donk or Fold?
 

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how do we know this? he might be betting 3% of flops and calling 2%, or he might be betting 60% and calling 40%. we don't know if he's betting weak hands.

this is why i think aggro factor would be more useful if it stayed broken up between betting and calling instead of dividing one by the other.

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Your right, this is very possible. I thought of this while typing, but didn't elaborate. Generally, opponents like this aren't seeing 80% of flops, but folding on 90% of them. You are right, though, we don't have all the information necessary here to reach either conclusion with a high level of confidence. Until I am proven otherwise, I assume a villain like this is betting some very marginal hands.

I also agree that the raise/call numbers would be more valuable than the number we are given.