Chimps are people too, insists scientist
 

Chimps are people too, insists scientist

From the article:

AN EXPERT on primates is to tell a court that apes are people, in a groundbreaking case that will determine whether a chimp can have human rights.

Jane Goodall, known worldwide for her study of chimpanzee social and family life, has agreed to testify that apes deserve the same treatment as humans


and

This is the second legal action in Europe to address whether primates should be guaranteed human rights; the Socialist government in Spain has proposed a law to allow moral guardianship of great apes, akin to the care for severely disabled or comatose people.

Your tax dollars going for the welfare of chimpanzees. I guess the eventual goal is to get them to vote. How crazy is this???

Re: Chimps are people too, insists scientist
 

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Your tax dollars going for the welfare of chimpanzees. I guess the eventual goal is to get them to vote. How crazy is this???

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what did you expect? did you think the status quo would remain once one got elected president.

Re: Chimps are people too, insists scientist
 

Re: Chimps are people too, insists scientist
 

[ QUOTE ]
Chimps are people too, insists scientist

From the article:

AN EXPERT on primates is to tell a court that apes are people, in a groundbreaking case that will determine whether a chimp can have human rights.

Jane Goodall, known worldwide for her study of chimpanzee social and family life, has agreed to testify that apes deserve the same treatment as humans


and

This is the second legal action in Europe to address whether primates should be guaranteed human rights; the Socialist government in Spain has proposed a law to allow moral guardianship of great apes, akin to the care for severely disabled or comatose people.

Your tax dollars going for the welfare of chimpanzees. I guess the eventual goal is to get them to vote. How crazy is this???

[/ QUOTE ]

How about we humans just leave chimps in the wild and unmolested, where they can take care of themselves? Chimps can be the guardians of chimps just as they have for hundreds of thousands of years. All humans need do is leave them alone and stop destroying their natural habitat.

I'd rather see tax dollars go for the preservation of wild areas than for the custodial care of chimpanzees. I'll go out on a limb here and guess that if chimps could choose, that's probably what they'd prefer too [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Couldn't these chimpanzees captured from the wild be released back into the wilds? I can see the other point if a chimp was raised from babyhood in a human environment, but it seems to me that would be on a case-by-case basis and not contingent upon a court ruling for all chimps but rather upon the well-caring of a private party. A fair idea might be to have the poachers trade places with the captured chimps: the chimps get to go back to the wilds and the poachers get to go to the laboratory.

Re: Chimps are people too, insists scientist
 

[image]http://www.siue.edu/babel/Planet-of-the-Apes.jpeg[/image]

Re: Chimps are people too, insists scientist
 

Before I can cast a vote on this issue I must know: Are chimps delicious or are they not delicious? Do they taste good with barbeque sauce? What about honey-garlic?

I demand a bipartisan inquiry into these issues before any action is taken.

Re: Chimps are people too, insists scientist
 

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All humans need do is leave them alone and stop destroying their natural habitat.

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Humans and chimps live in different habitats, preventing humans from destroying a chimps forest is to prevent them from living their. IE you have to give the chimps rights to their land in stead of humans.

Re: Chimps are people too, insists scientist
 

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[ QUOTE ]
All humans need do is leave them alone and stop destroying their natural habitat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Humans and chimps live in different habitats, preventing humans from destroying a chimps forest is to prevent them from living their. IE you have to give the chimps rights to their land in stead of humans.

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That's not quite so. You could also throw in money to buy a set of land that will be used for chimps only. The rights would belong to the people owning the land, but the chimps would be left alone.

Re: Chimps are people too, insists scientist
 

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[ QUOTE ]
All humans need do is leave them alone and stop destroying their natural habitat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Humans and chimps live in different habitats, preventing humans from destroying a chimps forest is to prevent them from living their. IE you have to give the chimps rights to their land in stead of humans.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nature preserves?

Re: Chimps are people too, insists scientist
 

'bout time.

Re: Chimps are people too, insists scientist
 

Call me crazy, but I think one of the major requirements for granting human rights is to be a human being.

Re: Chimps are people too, insists scientist
 

I once saw a docu about a gorilla named Koko.
She was educated from early on in sign-language.
I've never seen a soul more lonely then hers.
It was heart-bleeding.
I rest my case!

Re: Chimps are people too, insists scientist
 

First they came for the gorillas...

Re: Chimps are people too, insists scientist
 

I think we should start by giving HUMANS human rights.

Re: Chimps are people too, insists scientist
 

Where is William Proxmire when you need him?

Re: Chimps are people too, insists scientist
 

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Call me crazy, but I think one of the major requirements for granting human rights is to be a human being.

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A group without boundaries.

Re: Chimps are people too, insists scientist
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All humans need do is leave them alone and stop destroying their natural habitat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Humans and chimps live in different habitats, preventing humans from destroying a chimps forest is to prevent them from living their. IE you have to give the chimps rights to their land in stead of humans.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not quite so. You could also throw in money to buy a set of land that will be used for chimps only. The rights would belong to the people owning the land, but the chimps would be left alone.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you do this then you are selling land to humans and respecting human property rights. I am under the impression that Goodall wants governments to provide this land which is an entirely different animal (PI).

Re: Chimps are people too, insists scientist
 

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Call me crazy, but I think one of the major requirements for granting human rights is to be a human being.

[/ QUOTE ]

racist

Court won\'t declare chimp a person
 

Court won't declare chimp a person

An update on the progress of this case.

He's now got a human name — Matthew Hiasl Pan — but he's having trouble getting his day in court. Animal rights activists campaigning to get Pan, a 26-year-old chimpanzee, legally declared a person vowed Thursday to take their challenge to Austria's Supreme Court after a lower court threw out their latest appeal.

A provincial judge in the city of Wiener Neustadt dismissed the case earlier this week, ruling that the Vienna-based Association Against Animal Factories had no legal standing to argue on the chimp's behalf.

The association, which worries the shelter caring for the chimp might close, has been pressing to get Pan declared a "person" so a guardian can be appointed to look out for his interests and provide him with a home.

Group president Martin Balluch insists that Pan is "a being with interests" and accuses the Austrian judicial system of monkeying around.

"It is astounding how all the courts try to evade the question of personhood of a chimp as much as they can," Balluch said.

A hearing date for the Supreme Court appeal was not immediately set.



Astounding that the courts evade the question of the personhood of a chimp??? Too funny.

Oh well, going on vacation out of town for 10 days, probably will read this forum a few times but probably won't post until I get back.

Re: Court won\'t declare chimp a person
 

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Astounding that the courts evade the question of the personhood of a chimp??? Too funny.

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This is pretty standard in the US and I think in most common law jursidictions: courts aren't supposed to issue a ruling on the merits of a case if there are procedural grounds to dismiss the case and when ruling on the merits to rule as narrowly as possible. Justice Roberts has been big on this lately.

Re: Court won\'t declare chimp a person
 

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Group president Martin Balluch insists that Pan is "a being with interests" and accuses the Austrian judicial system of monkeying around.

[/ QUOTE ]


That pun must have been intentional.

And I'm not sure I understand. They want to have the chimp declared a person so it can have a guardian to take care of it? Isn't that what we call a [censored] ZOO?

Re: Chimps are people too, insists scientist
 

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How crazy is this???

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Not at all crazy. In fact, failure to protect animals properly like this is one of the main things that make me question the viability of anarchism.

Re: Chimps are people too, insists scientist
 

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'bout time.

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Re: Court won\'t declare chimp a person
 

You don't get it Taso.

It all started with Reagan playing second fiddle to a chimp. Nowadays film executives, and the population at large, I hope, think it is really much easier to replace Bush with a chimp. I mean Reagan was bad, but Bush is unbeatable when it comes to monkeying.

Re: Chimps are people too, insists scientist
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How crazy is this???

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all crazy. In fact, failure to protect animals properly like this is one of the main things that make me question the viability of anarchism.

[/ QUOTE ]

You get big time plus points in my book.

Re: Court won\'t declare chimp a person
 

[ QUOTE ]
You don't get it Taso.

It all started with Reagan playing second fiddle to a chimp. Nowadays film executives, and the population at large, I hope, think it is really much easier to replace Bush with a chimp. I mean Reagan was bad, but Bush is unbeatable when it comes to monkeying.

[/ QUOTE ]

News flash: not every thread is about Bush.

Re: Chimps are people too, insists scientist
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How crazy is this???

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all crazy. In fact, failure to protect animals properly like this is one of the main things that make me question the viability of anarchism.

[/ QUOTE ]

You get big time plus points in my book.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Chimps are people too, insists scientist
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How crazy is this???

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all crazy. In fact, failure to protect animals properly like this is one of the main things that make me question the viability of anarchism.

[/ QUOTE ]

This has absolutely nothing to do with protecting animals and is in no way a problem for AC. Protecting animals might be, stuff like this OP, absolutely not.

Re: Chimps are people too, insists scientist
 

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Your tax dollars going for the welfare of chimpanzees. I guess the eventual goal is to get them to vote. How crazy is this???

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mind them voting as long as they also serve jury duty.

Re: Chimps are people too, insists scientist
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How crazy is this???

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all crazy. In fact, failure to protect animals properly like this is one of the main things that make me question the viability of anarchism.

[/ QUOTE ]

This has absolutely nothing to do with protecting animals and is in no way a problem for AC. Protecting animals might be, stuff like this OP, absolutely not.

[/ QUOTE ]

It has everything to do with protecting animals.

Re: Court won\'t declare chimp a person
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You don't get it Taso.

It all started with Reagan playing second fiddle to a chimp. Nowadays film executives, and the population at large, I hope, think it is really much easier to replace Bush with a chimp. I mean Reagan was bad, but Bush is unbeatable when it comes to monkeying.

[/ QUOTE ]

News flash: not every thread is about Bush.

[/ QUOTE ]

As pointed out in another thread, Midge could turn a thread about salmon mating with trout in norway and producing outstanding lox into a Bush thread.

Re: Court won\'t declare chimp a person
 

[ QUOTE ]
You don't get it Taso.

It all started with Reagan playing second fiddle to a chimp. Nowadays film executives, and the population at large, I hope, think it is really much easier to replace Bush with a chimp. I mean Reagan was bad, but Bush is unbeatable when it comes to monkeying.

[/ QUOTE ]

???!!!











???Q?!!?!?!?1?!/121213211?!?

Re: Chimps are people too, insists scientist
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How crazy is this???

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all crazy. In fact, failure to protect animals properly like this is one of the main things that make me question the viability of anarchism.

[/ QUOTE ]

This has absolutely nothing to do with protecting animals and is in no way a problem for AC. Protecting animals might be, stuff like this OP, absolutely not.

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It has everything to do with protecting animals.

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Declaring a chimp a person has to do with protecting animals? I thought it had to do with protecting people.

Thats the whole point, animals don't get protections (well, ok, very limited ones) and people do. THAT is what this case is about.

EDIT: Unless you were going super second level clever and you meant that humans are animals and protecting humans is a big problem for AC.

Re: Chimps are people too, insists scientist
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How crazy is this???

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all crazy. In fact, failure to protect animals properly like this is one of the main things that make me question the viability of anarchism.

[/ QUOTE ]

This has absolutely nothing to do with protecting animals and is in no way a problem for AC. Protecting animals might be, stuff like this OP, absolutely not.

[/ QUOTE ]

It has everything to do with protecting animals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Declaring a chimp a person has to do with protecting animals? I thought it had to do with protecting people.


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Chimps are both.

Re: Chimps are people too, insists scientist
 

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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How crazy is this???

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all crazy. In fact, failure to protect animals properly like this is one of the main things that make me question the viability of anarchism.

[/ QUOTE ]

This has absolutely nothing to do with protecting animals and is in no way a problem for AC. Protecting animals might be, stuff like this OP, absolutely not.

[/ QUOTE ]

It has everything to do with protecting animals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Declaring a chimp a person has to do with protecting animals? I thought it had to do with protecting people.


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Chimps are both.

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So are people, but I don't think thats the point. Going to court to declare chimps people is practically the exact opposite of animal rights. Its admitting that the animal rights movement is useless or flawed. If it were about securing animal rights, it would be irrelevant whether chimps were people or not. This is an admission that the only things that have rights are people, and so we need to get chimps into the people category.

Re: Chimps are people too, insists scientist
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How crazy is this???

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all crazy. In fact, failure to protect animals properly like this is one of the main things that make me question the viability of anarchism.

[/ QUOTE ]

This has absolutely nothing to do with protecting animals and is in no way a problem for AC. Protecting animals might be, stuff like this OP, absolutely not.

[/ QUOTE ]

It has everything to do with protecting animals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Declaring a chimp a person has to do with protecting animals? I thought it had to do with protecting people.


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Chimps are both.

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So are people, but I don't think thats the point. Going to court to declare chimps people is practically the exact opposite of animal rights. Its admitting that the animal rights movement is useless or flawed. If it were about securing animal rights, it would be irrelevant whether chimps were people or not. This is an admission that the only things that have rights are people, and so we need to get chimps into the people category.

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I didn't realize you were in the camp of rights being things granted by governments.

Re: Chimps are people too, insists scientist
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How crazy is this???

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all crazy. In fact, failure to protect animals properly like this is one of the main things that make me question the viability of anarchism.

[/ QUOTE ]

This has absolutely nothing to do with protecting animals and is in no way a problem for AC. Protecting animals might be, stuff like this OP, absolutely not.

[/ QUOTE ]

It has everything to do with protecting animals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Declaring a chimp a person has to do with protecting animals? I thought it had to do with protecting people.


[/ QUOTE ]

Chimps are both.

[/ QUOTE ]

So are people, but I don't think thats the point. Going to court to declare chimps people is practically the exact opposite of animal rights. Its admitting that the animal rights movement is useless or flawed. If it were about securing animal rights, it would be irrelevant whether chimps were people or not. This is an admission that the only things that have rights are people, and so we need to get chimps into the people category.

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I didn't realize you were in the camp of rights being things granted by governments.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course not. And thats ALSO completely irrelevant. I'm still waiting for you to get to the part where suing to have chimps recognized as people is somehow an animal rights problem. Its a definitional problem, its a philosophical problem, it might even be a scientific problem, but it has absolutely nothing to do with animal rights. Like I said, the exact opposite.

Actually, I'm a little bewildered how you managed to get that out of my post. People have self-evident rights. These are not given by the government and nowhere did I imply such. What is NOT self-evident is whether chimps are people or not. If they are, they have rights. If they aren't, they don't.

I suppose there is some nebulous "truth" out there somewhere that chimps either DO or DO NOT have rights, but I don't think thats a useful sidetrack.