tilt explained (by neuroscience)
 

a very rough explanation of the neuroscience of tilt goes something like this:
You get a bad beat. Your mind takes this as a threat (to your livlihood aka bankroll). First flow of adrenaline comes in. This flow is small, but prepares your mind and body for an encounter.
You hit another badbeat. (Usually your tilt after 2) Now the major flow of adrenaline and other chemicals comes.
Now here comes the intricate info, so pay attention.
You're brain is made up of many parts, but the two that are related to poker are the amygdala and the lymbic system.

The amygdala controls your basic emotions, sex,food,and when to fight or flight. Basically think of a dog's brain.

The lymbic system is what separates us from the dog. Its an extra layer of tissue that we evolved on top of the amygdala. It controls a lot of what we think of as "concious thought". It is attributed to calculations, logic, and rationality.

The amygdala is much more neccessary for us to live than the limbic system. It controls all of the basic needs for life, and its also the core part of the brain, the limbic system is an extension of it.

Now back to poker. When we hit that second bad beat, and the large flow of chemicals starts, the amygdala takes over. We've been threatened and if we were cavemen, we need to decide on fight or flight. The amygdala is much faster than the limbic system to make decisions, but the decisions are very crude and far from very accurate.

As the limbic system is no longer guiding our actions, we lose a lot of our control over solid logical decision making.

What do you do to fix this? Take a break, get some excersize, and do not ruminate on the bad beat, you will just make the flow of chemicals even stronger and you will lose even more control.

I hope everyone enjoyed this, I might make a small book with this stuff, I really enjoy it.

Re: tilt explained (by neuroscience)
 

sweet!

ty

Re: tilt explained (by neuroscience)
 

Good post.

More info is welcome!

Re: tilt explained (by neuroscience)
 

i like it. how do you explain not tilting when you have more than 2 bad beats in a row. is that because of your experience making you see the loss of a couple of buyins as less of a threat?
sometimes i can tilt with 1 bad beat, and sometimes i won't after 5. is this just more threatening situations and less threatening situations?

Re: tilt explained (by neuroscience)
 

Yeah, I'm not sure. I think there are a lot of factors as to how much it takes to tilt you. I don't tilt very much any more, but I used to tilt very hard, when I had little experience and wasn't used to the feeling and didn't know how to handle it.
I also think there are some emotions like a sense of "deservedness" that can make you tilt harder. Obviously when your bankroll is limited or if you need the money, the badbeat will effect you even more. I'm sure this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Re: tilt explained (by neuroscience)
 

I usually tilt more if its a bad player making retarded calls. When i finally in the spot to get him after not getting any chance for a long time and i get stacked by some retarded 3 outer.

But when iv been playing like a maniac and get stacked off with AA when some regular hit TPTK with AK, i dont really care.

Re: tilt explained (by neuroscience)
 

Nice bit of "nut shell" physiology.

The interesting thing about the human body is its need for balance or maintaining the status quo. As in Physics, for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.
When your endocrine system dumps in response to one stimuli, a different brew of chemicals is released shortly thereafter to counteract the first event.
Basically, that's why you can feel like crap physically once the original "threat" has passed.
We can train our body (mind) to react in a different manner but it's not easy.
Dr. Al makes some interesting points in his PoP book. As I recall, he maintains that playing poker well requires the mind to make decisions that are counter-intuitive to our natural tendency to take the path of least resisitance.
I believe he mentions Law Enforcement & Military Pilot workers as two groups who are naturally wired to play poker effectively.

Re: tilt explained (by neuroscience)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure this is just the tip of the iceberg.

[/ QUOTE ]

feeling sorry for yurself. the need for self punishment due to some type of self guilt.

the movie "the hustler" with paul newman delves into this very thing. worth watching. very interesting.

i notice phil ivey online. when he takes a few bad beats, his avatar dissapears like a flash. he just quits before he slips into tilt land.

sbrugby says he drinks green tea to stay calm. is there calming effects of green tea? i thought tea was a stimulant.

Re: tilt explained (by neuroscience)
 

Green tea contains theanine which is an amino acid and has calming properties. The tea with the highest levels of it is Macha tea which is the tea used in japanese tea ceremonies. I don't think this is a coincidence since the ceremony is a very contemplative and calming procedure.

You can buy pure L-Theanine. Some japanese firm has the patent for the proper stuff and they call it Suntheanine. I have some. I can't honestly say it does much for me.

Green tea also contain caffeine which must counter the theanine I'd imagine.

Green tea
 

[ QUOTE ]
Green tea contains theanine which is an amino acid and has calming properties. The tea with the highest levels of it is Macha tea which is the tea used in japanese tea ceremonies. I don't think this is a coincidence since the ceremony is a very contemplative and calming procedure.

You can buy pure L-Theanine. Some japanese firm has the patent for the proper stuff and they call it Suntheanine. I have some. I can't honestly say it does much for me.

Green tea also contain caffeine which must counter the theanine I'd imagine.

[/ QUOTE ]

The theanine doesn't so much counter the caffeine as it smooths out jitters that can accompany caffiene when you take it straight, or drink coffee.

It is easier to be in an alert, but calm state of mind.

(note I said "easier", it is by no means a magic bullet)

Re: Green tea
 

Great post and analysis.
While I endorse your advice to take a break after bad beats, it's not always possible. I play many tournaments and taking a break isn't an option. So, using the info you provided, I think what I should focus on is acknowledging the "tilt" feeling as a possible plus. If I follow your analysis, our bodies are giving us a chemical fight-or-flight boost, and if I can learn to consistently harness this energy into a controllable form, then my tilt could actually serve to provide me with additional stamina.

Or am I way off here?

Re: tilt explained (by neuroscience)
 

[ QUOTE ]
a very rough explanation of the neuroscience of tilt goes something like this:
You get a bad beat. Your mind takes this as a threat (to your livlihood aka bankroll). First flow of adrenaline comes in. This flow is small, but prepares your mind and body for an encounter.
You hit another badbeat. (Usually your tilt after 2) Now the major flow of adrenaline and other chemicals comes.
Now here comes the intricate info, so pay attention.
You're brain is made up of many parts, but the two that are related to poker are the amygdala and the lymbic system.

The amygdala controls your basic emotions, sex,food,and when to fight or flight. Basically think of a dog's brain.

The lymbic system is what separates us from the dog. Its an extra layer of tissue that we evolved on top of the amygdala. It controls a lot of what we think of as "concious thought". It is attributed to calculations, logic, and rationality.

The amygdala is much more neccessary for us to live than the limbic system. It controls all of the basic needs for life, and its also the core part of the brain, the limbic system is an extension of it.

Now back to poker. When we hit that second bad beat, and the large flow of chemicals starts, the amygdala takes over. We've been threatened and if we were cavemen, we need to decide on fight or flight. The amygdala is much faster than the limbic system to make decisions, but the decisions are very crude and far from very accurate.

As the limbic system is no longer guiding our actions, we lose a lot of our control over solid logical decision making.

What do you do to fix this? Take a break, get some excersize, and do not ruminate on the bad beat, you will just make the flow of chemicals even stronger and you will lose even more control.

I hope everyone enjoyed this, I might make a small book with this stuff, I really enjoy it.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I may ask, what are your credentials/studies within the field of neuroscience? Your post implies that you have "explained" tilt within the context of this field, so I would think at least some linked studies within your post supporting your claims would be of benefit to prevent any sort of misinformation. Thanks in advance.

Re: Green tea
 

[ QUOTE ]
Great post and analysis.
While I endorse your advice to take a break after bad beats, it's not always possible. I play many tournaments and taking a break isn't an option. So, using the info you provided, I think what I should focus on is acknowledging the "tilt" feeling as a possible plus. If I follow your analysis, our bodies are giving us a chemical fight-or-flight boost, and if I can learn to consistently harness this energy into a controllable form, then my tilt could actually serve to provide me with additional stamina.

Or am I way off here?

[/ QUOTE ]

to me, from what the post says, yur way off. if something occurs in the brain that over rides control, then how do u control that?.........if we go by the original post of course.

Re: Green tea
 

[ QUOTE ]
to me, from what the post says, yur way off. if something occurs in the brain that over rides control, then how do u control that?.........if we go by the original post of course.

[/ QUOTE ]

The mind does have the ability to override the body, but when something is happening in the brain, be it adrenalin, or lack of oxygen and you don't know what is happening, you might think it's just you. If, however, you "know" something physical is happening, it is easier to step back and let it pass - without blowing off your stack.

Emotional Intelligence by Goleman
 

This entire explanation is fully explained in the first chapter of Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Goleman. I highly recommend this book.

What basically happens when people are faced with a stressfull situation THAT THEY CANNOT COPE WITH is that the information that is supposed to go thru the cortex take a shortcut into the amygdala, the seat of emotions. In the book it is called an "EMOTIONAL HIJACKING". In one of his videotapes Goleman actually uses Mike Tyson's biting of Holyfield's ears as an example of this kind of snapping.

"Amygdala Hijacking" is a very cool buzzword that originated in the book Emotional Intelligence. It's an awesome book. An even better book about emotions is Emotional Hostage by Leslie Cameron-Bandler. It teaches how to train your mind to not not have amygdala hijackings. It predates Emotional Intelligence by ten years and should probably be considered the true first emotional intelligence book ever.

Re: Emotional Intelligence by Goleman
 

yep, this is a great starter book -- the first book I read to introduce me to neuroscience and I recommend it to everyone.

Re: tilt explained (by neuroscience)
 

dude, I'm a 24 year old poker player. I've read a lot of neuroscience stuff, this information is very very basic within the field -- lets not get self righteous here.

Re: Emotional Intelligence by Goleman
 

[ QUOTE ]
yep, this is a great starter book -- the first book I read to introduce me to neuroscience and I recommend it to everyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks, i saved it to my favorites and i'm going to check it out.

Re: tilt explained (by neuroscience)
 

[ QUOTE ]
dude, I'm a 24 year old poker player. I've read a lot of neuroscience stuff, this information is very very basic within the field -- lets not get self righteous here.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're referring to my post, i'm by no means trying to be self rightous. I guess being in graduate school has kind of conditioned me to browse to the bottom of any technical material and search for references i can look into for more information. Thanks for the book recommendation though whoever posted it, i'll definately check it out.

Re: tilt explained (by neuroscience)
 

yeah, read all of Goleman's stuff, its very good sampler introduction to the field.

Re: tilt explained (by neuroscience)
 

What drugs mellow the amygdala but do not (or only minimally) effect the lymbic system?

Re: tilt explained (by neuroscience)
 

haha -- you want a cheap out huh. Its called self control, motivation, experience and maturity. Good Luck.

Re: tilt explained (by neuroscience)
 

so then whats the explanation for players who don't tilt? i'm curious, being one myself. is it simply the fact that i've conditioned my brain not to see a bad beat as a 'threat'?

Re: tilt explained (by neuroscience)
 

[ QUOTE ]
haha -- you want a cheap out huh. Its called self control, motivation, experience and maturity. Good Luck.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. better living through science. I bought some of that L-Theanine today and just took one. I'm gonna use it for a few days straight to see if I notice a difference. I guess I feel a little calmer from taking it.

I have heard that beta blockers are good. In fact I have heard that some physicians take them as a PRN prior to giving a speech to deal with the stage fright. It's my understanding that they don't impair judgement like benzo's do. Thoughts?

Re: tilt explained (by neuroscience)
 

bkholdem,
thats correct, it doesnt impair judgement. i've taken propranolol before. it slows down your heart rate, keeps you from studdering, and shaking. good for stage fright.

if you're thinking of taking it to control tilt, it wont work.

gl

Re: tilt explained (by neuroscience)
 

the best way to control tilt is playing only a few tables, being well rested, in shape, a good diet, and a good social life. Nothing good comes cheap.

Re: tilt explained (by neuroscience)
 

[ QUOTE ]
bkholdem,
thats correct, it doesnt impair judgement. i've taken propranolol before. it slows down your heart rate, keeps you from studdering, and shaking. good for stage fright.

if you're thinking of taking it to control tilt, it wont work.

gl

[/ QUOTE ]

RU sure? As it stands now I don't blow cash when on tilt but do step away from the tables much more frequently than I would like. I had read a bit about it being used to control tilt to some extent, more on how archers use it and pool players and I think it's banned in archery events.

What would it do re: poker? Reduce visual tells at live games when you have a good hand?

Does it treat impulsiveness at all? What kind of secondary uses does it have?

Re: tilt explained (by neuroscience)
 

You could have heart-rate induced tilt according to Blink by Malcom Gladwell (also a pretty good book.)

I can't recall exactly what he says but there is something like an ideal elevated heart rate where your brain is getting the right amount of blood to make good decisions. Then there is a rate above that where your body starts sending a bunch of blood to your legs for you to run away and such and your brain gets less at that point and it can badly affect your judgement.

Re: tilt explained (by neuroscience)
 

I study psychology at university and that was a very nice summary of the brain systems.

But you are essentially just telling us that we tilt because we lose control.... DUH.

But well said anyway.

Re: tilt explained (by neuroscience)
 

if you shake or show nervous signs during a bluff for example, then propranolol will prevent it but it shouldnt change your racing thoughts, or frustration.

Re: tilt explained (by neuroscience)
 

I think there are a few mistakes in your post.

First, the amygdala is part of the limbic system, they aren't separate.

Second, the limbic system isn't what separates us from dogs. Go and whack your dog on the nose with the newspaper and you will see the limbic system in action as it runs away or cowers. The limbic system does not control 'conscious thought'-- that is the prefrontal cortex. The limbic system comprises basic parts of the brain of all vertebrates. The limbic system on the whole is generally involved in the emotional response to stimuli.

Third, the amygdala is generally thought of as being involved in behaviours such as fear conditioning. It does not really control things like breathing and what not.

Anyway, your sentiment is right. What happens is you are going along playing poker and a sickening river card comes off and your opponent makes a bet. Or you take a bad beat. You react to that stimulus as if it was threatening to you, activating your "fight or flight" response. This response occurs when the amygdala, which is part of the limbic system, activates the hypothalamus which in turn dumps a bunch of hormones into your bloodstream, preparing you to fight or run away. Your heart rate increases, your breathing rate increases when this happens.

So it's not all or nothing. A really major bad thing happens and a lot of hormones will be released. Something slightly bad maybe nothing or a little bit is released. But the hormones in your blood don't automatically go away the second the next hand is dealt. They stick around for at least 15 minutes to half an hour after they are released. It is physically impossible for anybody to be completely "calm" after the hormones are released. They have to wait until the hormones are naturally flushed from the blood.

If you have a minor response and keep playing, your response to the next bad beat will be more severe. This happens because new hormones are released into your bloodstream and add to the hormones that were already there. Eventually you will reach the tipping point and be unable to control yourself and make reactions in an emotional state.

So what is the cure? The first is to know that if you do feel that rush that if you then tell yourself you are okay to keep playing, you are lying to yourself because it is impossible. You also know that anybody you see who gets flushed at a bad beat cannot possibly be playing non-emotionally the next hand. Or even for the next half an hour or so.

The way to stop it is the way you deal with any fear or adverse stimulus. You keep exposing yourself to it over and over, and watch yourself have the flight or fight reaction and see it for what it is. Eventually you will notice that you thought you were going to have the reaction, and you did not have it. And those times where you notice no reaction will become more and more frequent. It will never go away completely.

In the mean time if you feel that rgghthrrrgh rush, you now know the only way you can possibly play calmly is to not play for the next half an hour, let the hormones flush out of your system and then come back reset.

I think a lot of people have really bad problems with tilt because they get in a cycle and wind up being half on tilt before they even start playing. Let's say you take a bunch of bad beats one session, keep playing, play bad, lose more money and then finally force yourself to quit. The next session, you might view playing poker in and of itself as a threat. Like "I'm going to get these guys this time.".. well that's a little bit of the fight response. So their fuse is even shorter than usual. If you complain about bad beats or how bad you run and all of that this is what you are doing. You have taken playing poker and turned it into a negative stimulus so even when you start playing you are geared up to tilt. If that is true for you you have to go all of the way back to the beginning and not play until you view poker in a neutral fashion again. At any rate, when you notice yourself having that rush you should quit playing immediately and give yourself half an hour to let those hormones flush out of your bloodstream.

Re: tilt explained (by neuroscience)
 

Any thoughts on using Modafinil for alertness or long sessions?

Re: tilt explained (by neuroscience)
 

yeah I've looked into that (provigil), but havn't tried it.

Re: tilt explained (by neuroscience)
 

[ QUOTE ]
yeah I've looked into that (provigil), but havn't tried it.

[/ QUOTE ]

A psychiatrist that consults for the company I work for said that it was going to be big in the future, used a lot as a feel better type drug.

Re: tilt explained (by neuroscience)
 

[ QUOTE ]
the best way to control tilt is playing only a few tables, being well rested, in shape, a good diet, and a good social life. Nothing good comes cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that just from dial-a-cliche, or do you have some evidence to back it up?

Re: tilt explained (by neuroscience)
 

yeah, I do. But it is also common sense, which I don't need to argue.

Re: tilt explained (by neuroscience)
 

Hello there.
I`m a new member and I like to start my post count by commenting in this thread.
Don`t mind the spelling and grammar mistakes please , English is not my native language.

I`ve never studied psychology or even read a psychology book so the little knowledge I have on the subject comes from articles and TV.
I `m familiar with the subject discussed in this thread but I don`t think that tilt is a result of the process that is explained here.
What we talk about here is the most primitive biological process that happens to our body when we feel threatened just like every animal on this planet.
And this feeling of danger or being threatened is simply...fear.
It`s the fear that sparks the process.
It starts with chills ( body temperature drops ) to prepare the body for extreme physical labor and adrenaline starts flowing to give you the energy boost for this labor.
Now you are prepared to fight or run for your life.
What this process has to do with Tilt ?

Strangely enough I almost never tilt in poker rooms but online it does not take much to tilt me up.
I don`t feel "threatened" or any fear when i tilt.
I play in my BR limit and few bad beats are hardly going to bankrupt me .
The tilt I`m feeling is actually an anger. I`m angry and I want revenge...right now.
It is a combination of an urge to hurt the dude back in any way I can and an urge to get my chips back fast.
Most usual reaction is to start playing recklessly or move up in stakes for a quick double-up.
Thats tilt.

So... isn`t this more of an anger management and ego issue ?
And if it is , doesn`t this come from some other part of the brain then the most primitive part that almost every living creature has since the beginning of time ?
Does any of the psychology students wants to comment on this ?

Re: tilt explained (by neuroscience)
 

I barely understood what you said, but I think you understood me even less. When you go into fight or flight mode, your decisions are no longer being made in the spot you are used to makeing your decisions. They are now made in the amygdala, which is not a good place to be making rational decisions.

Re: tilt explained (by neuroscience)
 

rory does crazy [censored] with rats brains and stuff so i believe what ever he says

Re: tilt explained (by neuroscience)
 

yeah, as I'm reading more and more, I'm realizing a lot of the terminology of my original post is wrong. The main idea is right though.