Las Vegas rooms--- it is time
 

This will never happen BUT it is time.....

Poker rooms in Las Vegas need to standardize poker rules.
A few examples----
1. Buy the button -- some rooms yes, some no
2. Post between the button -- some yes, some no
3. Must moves--some yes, some no, some chain, some for an hour
4. 3rd. man walking, some yes, some no
5. Cash plays, some yes some no
6. In no-limit when all in, some must turn cards up, some no.
7. Dealer reads the cards. some yes, some no
and the list goes on and on.

Now I know, each poker room manager THINKS they know best and will not change. But, it is time to get poker under control.
When entering a room it would be nice to have a STANDARD rule base.....

I think the PPA or some one needs to step in and get this done,
BUT IT WILL NOT HAPPEN---------

Re: Las Vegas rooms--- it is time
 

In regards to 6, what rooms make you flip your cards in a cash game?

Re: Las Vegas rooms--- it is time
 

Bellagio--- lower no-limit games

Re: Las Vegas rooms--- it is time
 

[ QUOTE ]
Poker rooms in Las Vegas need to standardize poker rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure if I'm in the minority, but I prefer a diverse marketplace that allows me to choose the room and rule-set that maximizes my EV.

Re: Las Vegas rooms--- it is time
 

I like the different rules. Some of the donks out there don't know how to adapt or spend too much time thinking about them.

Re: Las Vegas rooms--- it is time
 

I know that I love asking if I can post now or if I need to wait. I'm sure everyone thinks "omg fish" right when I say that.

Re: Las Vegas rooms--- it is time
 

Not a big fan of standardizing many of the things you refer to.

Things like Buying the Button and posting between are really unimportant to the play of the game and don't matter if standrd or not.

must moves are the sort of thing where different systems may benefit different rooms. So let the room pick the system which it thinks best meets its needs. Same thing with 3rd man walking.


What I would like to see is that rooms which have unusual rules (like Planet Hollywoods raise must double the total previous bet rule) should make sure that players are aware of the rule.

I also hate when a dealer represents a rule as being the standrad when it isn't. Playing at the Monte Carlo (las vegas) I hadd a dealer tell the entire table that taking a drop without a flop is standard in Vegas, and that every room in Vegas would kill your hand in a tournament if you expose it while action is pending).

Re: Las Vegas rooms--- it is time
 

The last thing I'd ever want to see is the PPA telling Bellagio how to run their poker room.

Re: Las Vegas rooms--- it is time
 

What does #7 mean? Is this the same as cards speak? If so, isn't it standard?

Re: Las Vegas rooms--- it is time
 

[ QUOTE ]

What does #7 mean? Is this the same as cards speak? If so, isn't it standard?

[/ QUOTE ]

You turn your hand up and the dealer announces what you have.

If your opponent has not tabled his hand and misreads what you have, the dealer's announcement might make him realize he has a winner and not muck. Conversely, if the dealer makes a mistake and over calls your hand and your opponent mucks a winner, he is out of luck.

Re: Las Vegas rooms--- it is time
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bellagio--- lower no-limit games

[/ QUOTE ]

No way, they are crowded enough as it is.

Re: Las Vegas rooms--- it is time
 

I give Don a lot of credit for at least thinking about how to make the game better. I guess you aren't going to please those who are always looking out for themselves at the expense of the game. No doubt MLB ought to look into allowing teams with fast guys to shorten the path to first base down to 86 feet.

Re: Las Vegas rooms--- it is time
 

[ QUOTE ]
I give Don a lot of credit for at least thinking about how to make the game better. I guess you aren't going to please those who are always looking out for themselves at the expense of the game. No doubt MLB ought to look into allowing teams with fast guys to shorten the path to first base down to 86 feet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find it odd you would use a baseball analagy since baseball is the sport with the least uniform playing areas.

Re: Las Vegas rooms--- it is time
 

[ QUOTE ]
I give Don a lot of credit for at least thinking about how to make the game better. I guess you aren't going to please those who are always looking out for themselves at the expense of the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

CJ,

I respect you and Don a great deal.

That being said I honestly don't understand how the overall game of poker is 'harmed' (whatever that means) by poker room managers trying to put more butts in seats, and allowing players to decide which seat best fits their butt.

Personally I prefer playing in clean rooms with low rake and no jackpot drop, but I'm glad there are other choices for those that love them some jackpot.

As far as I know, nobody has implemented the Straight Beats a Flush Rule, but you and Don are arguing that the game is suffering because of small logistical differences that have little to do with the standard rules of poker.

Can you elaborate?


[ QUOTE ]
No doubt MLB ought to look into allowing teams with fast guys to shorten the path to first base down to 86 feet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or allowing half the pitchers in the game to sit out when it's their turn to bat. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Las Vegas rooms--- it is time
 

Don - I am torn on this subject, only because I am privy to why the TDA exists, and I'm not sure I'd like to see the same thing in cash games. I'm going to talk about this tonight with some friends, I'd love to see what others think.

Its theoretically possible to standardize Nevada poker rooms, but it would be impossible of course to do this nation wide due to local laws.

Re: Las Vegas rooms--- it is time
 

[ QUOTE ]

Its theoretically possible to standardize Nevada poker rooms,

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. No more than it's theoretically possible to standardize blackjack rules. Why the heck would the Bellagio let some random group tell them how to run their room?

Re: Las Vegas rooms--- it is time
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Its theoretically possible to standardize Nevada poker rooms,

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. No more than it's theoretically possible to standardize blackjack rules. Why the heck would the Bellagio let some random group tell them how to run their room?

[/ QUOTE ]

By theoretically I mean legally. And I agree, I don't think true standardization will occur, but it could happen in card rooms that cater to locals for example if there was enough interest between casino management and the community. But just because its theoretically possible doesn't mean its the best thing for the game or the players, I dont have an opinion yet.

I think the first step is for Nevada to require card rooms to post their rule books, this is far more important than standardization IMHO but I didn't want to hijack the thread (I guess its not really a hijack in retrospect, it is related). I have always liked that LA rooms have their rule books available to all players in the form of a pamphlet that they can take home.

Re: Las Vegas rooms--- it is time
 

No argument that California rooms are way better run than Las Vegas rooms. Or any rooms for that matter.

Re: Las Vegas rooms--- it is time
 

[ QUOTE ]
No argument that California rooms are way better run than Las Vegas rooms. Or any rooms for that matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you like to see the rulebooks posted in Nevada rooms? Do you think that is a realistic thing to lobby for with the gaming control board?

Re: Las Vegas rooms--- it is time
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No argument that California rooms are way better run than Las Vegas rooms. Or any rooms for that matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you like to see the rulebooks posted in Nevada rooms? Do you think that is a realistic thing to lobby for with the gaming control board?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think there's anything wrong with them posting the book. I have no clue how receptive the NGC will be to lobbying efforts. I'd guess that they'll be as receptive as the casinos themselves are.

seems this topic always makes me RANTY
 

The phenomenon of "robert's rules of poker" came about from bob ciaffone et al attempting to standardize the rules of poker. The man did a great job, btw, robert"s rules kick booty. If I have a question about a rule or ruling that's where I usually start. If I were going to open a room, I'd take robert's rules and use them as the template for my rules, and would not make many changes.

Bob had a great idea, but it didn't work out. Too much resistance from people who already knew everything about everything the day they were born.

That little problem holds completely true today, only there are fifty times more know nothing know-it-alls in the poker world. This know nothing phenomenon is most prevalent in poker management, especially here in vegas. For all its fabled glory, vegas more resembles disneyland these days, and of all the places I've been, poker in vegas is the most pathetic of all. Seriously, any self-respecting poker professional should be embarrassed with the state of poker in vegas.

The dealers mostly suck in vegas, especially if compared to other places or times. Ten years ago, the dealers at the trop in AC were great. They all counted the stub three times in every down, every time. They could all deal every game. In all the time I played there, I only remember one major dealer error. None of this is even remotely true in vegas, it's more the exact opposite. In one vegas room I saw a high hand jackpot get invalidated due to a 51 card deck. The guy who should have won about $300 was furious, with good reason. That table had been open for a while, many dealers handled that deck. Whoever spread that deck to begin with obviously didn't actually LOOK to see if all the cards were there. Each dealer that dealt after that obviously didn't count the stub. This same cardroom had two incidents of a 53 card deck in the past. To this day, despite the trying of one manager, counting the stub is not even on the radar, let alone a priority. Another vegas room allowed a PLAYER to show their dealers how to deal stud when they had a long list of interest. You'd think a manager would do that! And major errors (not just a burn-and-turn)? At least 1 per six hours in a cardroom is likely the over/under.

And cardroom rules? Well in vegas we have a mixture of pot-pourri (as in somebody's been smokin' it) and poop-pourri (as in that sensation you get when you step in it). I've had the err, "pleasure" of seeing the new rulebook (and "dealer certification" lol) for dealers for this year's wsop. Let's just say it's gonna be interesting, especially if you play badugi or triple draw. And while they're real concerned about which side your muck is on, stub counting wasn't brought up at all. Other "little things" like how to handle antes weren't mentioned either, because you know, "which side the muck is on is really important."

So we're at this state of disarray and non-standardization, hallmarked by confusion and chaos. Important rules aren't even standard between different cardrooms within the same company.

Who's to blame? Well, it's the know nothing know-it-alls, of course! Managers write rulebooks without any real clue as to the reasons behind or the effects (intended or otherwise) of certain rules. Unimportant things are given top priority, other things are ignored. Ig'nant rules like "the racetrack rule" are on the books, but not one single room in vegas even knows what a "dinner list" is. And let me just say this - if you are a good poker dealer, IT DOES NOT MAKE ANY FRIGGIN' DIFFERENCE IN THE FRIGGIN' UNIVERSE WHAT SIDE THE MUCK IS ON.

So in the meantime, thank you Bob for Robert's rules. They really are a great place to start, and things would be much better off if the standardization you envisioned would in fact come to pass.

Al

Re: Las Vegas rooms--- it is time
 

If all nevada poker rooms posted their entire rulebooks to the public it would be nit friggin' HELL. Although I almost agree with you in theory, the mix between jerkoff local coffee/cigarette break bungholes and never been to a cardroom before tourists found here in vegas would make that a disastrous idea.

Al

Re: Las Vegas rooms--- it is time
 

The idiot rules like those at the monte carlo are in place because of know nothing know-it-all morons like the dealers who represent things like drop without a flop as being standard. They don't know diddly, but they represent themselves as being well informed and representative of poker's top experts. It was discovered long ago that the stupid-er someone is, the more intelligent they actually believe themselves to be. Welcome to disneyland, err, vegas.

Al

Re: Las Vegas rooms--- it is time
 

Honestly, I don't care if all or any of Don's suggestions came to pass, but I'd like to see a standard operation from room to room. I don't like cell phones, but use mine. I don't care whether they post or don't, but I'd like to know before I sit down. I like buying the button, but it doesn't matter, as long as it's either/or from one to another.

The baseball analogy isn't good? I don't care how big or small the tables are, as in ball parks, but the rules of baseball say 90 feet from base to base and the pitcher's rubber is 66'6". That's the rules. They don't change those from park to park and team to team to accomodate a team's strengths.

I can't see how anyone can argue standardization isn't a good thing.

Re: Las Vegas rooms--- it is time
 

60'6 [/nit]

Re: Las Vegas rooms--- it is time
 

[ QUOTE ]

I can't see how anyone can argue standardization isn't a good thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Taking away choices from consumers is rarely a good thing. So I think an argument could be made that it's bad for players.

And I'm not sure how you'd sell to rooms like the Bellagio that it's good for them to give up control of the rules that they use to run their room.

Re: Las Vegas rooms--- it is time
 

[ QUOTE ]
The baseball analogy isn't good? I don't care how big or small the tables are, as in ball parks, but the rules of baseball say 90 feet from base to base and the pitcher's rubber is 66'6". That's the rules. They don't change those from park to park and team to team to accomodate a team's strengths.

[/ QUOTE ]

How far out is the center field wall and how tall is it? Right field and left field? How much room between the baselines and the wall is there? How much room behind the plate?

Apparently enough rules are standardized to make the game playable by everyone from room to room. But yeah, there are a few things that are not at all standard so we all know to ask (buying the button, say, or posting to enter the game). I find annoying mostly the distant outliers; those rules that one or two rooms out of 20 follow (the Monte Carlo and Mandalay rule books). But things like "no reading at the table, except racing forms" don't cost you money.

Those non-standardized rules which impact play disturb me most; the sorta rules that you can't know until you violate them or see them violated, but once you do it's too late and it's cost you $hundreds (for example, imaginary betting lines that extend to the ceiling so reaching forward with more chips than you intend to leave behind becomes a larger bet than you intended, or the act of simply answering your cell phone to say "hang on, I'm in a hand" killing your hand in a cash game). I wouldn't mind a bit more consistency among those.

Re: Las Vegas rooms--- it is time
 

[ QUOTE ]
I can't see how anyone can argue standardization isn't a good thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Standardization is not necessecarily a good thing.
Certainly for some things standard rules are prefereable but nonstandardization has benefits too.

1) Some things really may need different rules largely because of different circumstances.or example some rooms may benefit from the use of must move tables because of the traffic patterns in the room, while other rooms may benefit by not using a must move system. It makes litlle sense to me to standardize this.

also rooms using different rules allow for experimentation. I had never heard of buying the button. That started somewhere and obviously people liked it and it has spread. if rooms were all playing under standardized rules that would never of come about.

Re: Las Vegas rooms--- it is time
 

I'm definitely against this.

Some variety is good, and some rules are more appropriate for some rooms/games than others.

A simple example is that "cash plays" may be inappropriate for a downtown, small limit joint. However, I can't imagine the high-rollers ever wanting to not be able to have cash play.

Experimentation and Innovation are more important than standardization.

From Robert's Rules of Poker:
(Note that this is from "House Policies." Logically, if it's a house policy, then the author expects other houses to have other policies.)

"5. Cash is not permitted on the table. All cash should be changed into chips in order to play. If a player appears unaware of this rule and attempts to play unnoticed cash that was on the table during a pot, the dealer may let the cash play if no one in the pot objects, then have all the cash changed into chips after the hand. Any chips from another establishment are not permitted on the table, do not play in the game, and if discovered will be treated similarly to unnoticed cash. [See Section 16 – “Explanations,” discussion #5, for more information on this rule.]"


From "Explanations":
"3. This rulebook requires all cash to be changed into chips. In some cardrooms this may be impractical. If the cardroom chooses to allow cash, only $100 bills should be permitted. "

Re: Las Vegas rooms--- it is time
 

I am in no way suggesting the PPA or TDA get involved with establishing uniform rules of play in a poker room.
I am only suggesting rooms in Las Vegas look at working together in some fashion to make the game seamless from room to room.
One rule that does come to mind is the silly race track on the table.
One place uses this as a bet line, another uses the IN FRONT OF YOUR CARDS and yet another uses the FORWARD MOTION rule.
In baseball as CJ used, the basics of the game are set. You know before walking into the yard that each base is 90ft.
You know everything between the chalk and inside the fence is live.
I like the TT suggestion, place the rules book OUT in public reach.
I know the change will not happen, heck we can not even get day shift and swing shift to agree on the same rules in the same house on the same day.
But hey, thanks for keeping this thread civil and not skinning me.

Re: Las Vegas rooms--- it is time
 

[ QUOTE ]
thanks for keeping this thread civil and not skinning me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Always a first time. Don't worry, it won't last. Things will be back to normal with the full moon. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Las Vegas rooms--- it is time
 

Interesting thread. I enjoy going to different rooms with different rules. A little variation is a good thing in life, imo. And if knowing the rules gives me a small edge over the fish who don't know the rules, well, that's a good thing too.

Everytime I go to a new room, the first thing I ask as I sit down is what the commitment line is. That's probably the most important thing to know.

[ QUOTE ]
I have always liked that LA rooms have their rule books available to all players in the form of a pamphlet that they can take home.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an excellent idea.