Two Plus Two Newer Archives

Two Plus Two Newer Archives (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/index.php)

- Micro Stakes Limit (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=37)

- - QQ (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=400642)

Button and UTG were unknown. For what it´s worth UTG was getting short stacked.

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, MP2 3-bets, 1 fold, Button calls, 2 folds, UTG calls, Hero caps, MP2 calls, Button calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (17.40 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, MP2 folds, Button raises, UTG 3-bets, Hero...

Only reason I'm not capping is because I want to see what Btn does.
Tread very softly on the turn, be ready to fold if Btn likes his hand enough to cap and/or if another spade hits

Well, just on the basis of this hand, UTG and Button cant be that great players if they like to check/call and coldcall a preflop raise and 3-bet.

I would call UTG's flop check/3-bet.

Its hard to know what Button or UTG might have, but I could envisage loose players getting excited about having a high card to a flush draw.

So, for the time being I would call and re-evaluate on the turn. It seems too early to me to fold your overpair to 2 unknowns on the flop.

calldown non-[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] turn & river cards.

I think someone's got a set/flush/overpair here often. Probably not often enough to fold given the large pot, so I'm going to call and see the turn. Barring another raising war on the turn I'm going to show down if no more spades show up.

Given UTG being short stacked I think it's more likely he's pushing a big spade draw.

In general, how valueable is this read with short stacks? I seem to see it so often that they'll push marginal hands just to get all in.

[ QUOTE ]
calldown non-[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] turn & river cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

Given UTG being short stacked I think it's more likely he's pushing any two cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Given UTG being short stacked I think it's more likely he's pushing any two cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

GETTING shotstacked means getting to a point where you might be all-in before the hand's over and before you would end betting had you had more money with you. It doesn't mean that you're not folding a flop like this holding 72o with 5BB left.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Given UTG being short stacked I think it's more likely he's pushing any two cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

GETTING shotstacked means getting to a point where you might be all-in before the hand's over and before you would end betting had you had more money with you. It doesn't mean that you're not folding a flop like this holding 72o with 5BB left.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quit assuming your opponent thinks like you.

All too often I'll call a shortstack all in liberally when they have some crap like J5 and no piece of the board. It's much easier to do when heads up of course, but SS's do this stuff all the time.

They'd rather finish off their stack than actually try to conserve it and survive when they get to a certain point.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Given UTG being short stacked I think it's more likely he's pushing any two cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

GETTING shotstacked means getting to a point where you might be all-in before the hand's over and before you would end betting had you had more money with you. It doesn't mean that you're not folding a flop like this holding 72o with 5BB left.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quit assuming your opponent thinks like you.

All too often I'll call a shortstack all in liberally when they have some crap like J5 and no piece of the board. It's much easier to do when heads up of course, but SS's do this stuff all the time.

They'd rather finish off their stack than actually try to conserve it and survive when they get to a certain point.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is the point. And if Shortie had like 2.5bb left at the very beginning of the hand, I'd agree completely. However, seeing the flop with 4bb left would be another story, imho.

Using your head in these spots is obviously important.

(So, I wrote all this and reached the conclusion that Hero should value-cap the turn. Luckily, I forgot to post it before I took my kid to school, and had time to rethink it. Read on to find out what my new conclusion is.)

[ QUOTE ]
For what it´s worth UTG was getting short stacked.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does this mean, anyway? He's got 4bb? He's got 8bb? He's got 8bb but he just lost two big pots?

If your sense is that he's just been passively bleeding chips for a long time (the 4bb scenario), then I think this is much more likely to be an actual made flush from him. If he might be tilting (the "two big pots" scenario) then this could be atc. If he's just middling short, this is more likely to be a bad player overplaying a draw (with nothing or a made hand a bad player would be more likely to be just calling on the flop so as to "not lose customers").

So, that brings us to Button. This could be a set, made flush (not a small flush, tho), or strong draw. It's not two pair. It's unlikely to be a pair plus a draw, since what hand that matches up with this board that also contains a big spade is an unknown going to cold-call with preflop? It's unlikely to be an overpair, with the possible exception of JJ. It's unlikely to be AK. So, maybe AQ/AJ with one spade? So, his range is:

AQ, only one spade: 5 combos
AsQs/AsJs/KsQs/KsJs/QsJs: 5 combos
TT: 3 combo
66: 3 combo
33: 3 combo

So, you are for all intents and purposes ahead of 5, dead to 5, and drawing to 1 out against 9. The 5 hands you're ahead of and the 5 hands you're dead to effectively cancel each other out (all of the hands you're ahead of include a queen, so I'll reduce them to effectively 1 hand, 3 of the 5 you're behind include a queen, so let's reduce them to 3, and you'll see what I mean), so you're pretty much drawing to 1 out.

Fold.

The problem is that your immediate odds don't support drawing to 1 out and with the donator being short-stacked your implieds suck. If he were deep and a maniac, or if you had better reads on both players, that'd be a different story, but as it is fold.

I hate those situations where we're forced to spew with reverse implied odds. However, given the action any spade and we're done.

Yeah. Interesting decision.
The problem is: what do all the others have? One has a T obv, but does someone have a flush?
Actually, in 3-handed things like that I tend to push, i. e. cap the flop and see the turn.
Maybe that is a leak in my game, but all the other "experts" will help you out, I am sure.

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah. Interesting decision.
The problem is: what do all the others have? One has a T obv, but does someone have a flush?
Actually, in 3-handed things like that I tend to push, i. e. cap the flop and see the turn.
Maybe that is a leak in my game, but all the other "experts" will help you out, I am sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

How the [censored] is it that unterfish hasn't been banned?

I just have him on ignore.