We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

Conservative Christians apparently contend that no one besides Jesus is sinless enough to "deserve" heaven. That's aside from the original sin by Adam stuff. They admit that some are a lot more sinful than others but it doesn't matter as far as "salvation" is concerned.

When this idea is discussed, atheists and others often say "Why would God create beings that were destined to not meet his standards?" To which Christians reply "Because he wanted to give them free will. (In other words the free will to meet them or not meet them.) Or as Not Ready has said, he didn't want to create robots.

But wait a minute. Maybe humans are not robots as far as which flavor of ice cream they prefer. But if it is true that no human (aside from Jesus)ever has or ever will behaved perfectly enough to satisfy God then it is because no one has the free will to do that. You can't have it both ways. If your religion wants to claim with certainty that no one deserves heaven, because of their own sinful behavior, then it must be because God has created man in such a way to make it impossible for someone to behave otherwise. So as far as this subject is concerned people WOULD be robots without free will.

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

People by their natural actions cannot merit Heaven, not because their actions are sinful, but because they are natural actions and not supernatural. They can merit heaven by cooperating with the grace of God (a supernatural action for a supernatural place) if they so choose. How would that make them a robot?

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

The problem with this argument is that with each particular decision we can choose correctly. It breaks down to a probability thing. We have some x probability of choosing right on any given decision, but when taken over the course of many decisions, we effectively have no chance of getting everything right.

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

[ QUOTE ]
People by their natural actions cannot merit Heaven, not because their actions are sinful, but because they are natural actions and not supernatural. They can merit heaven by cooperating with the grace of God (a supernatural action for a supernatural place) if they so choose. How would that make them a robot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that Orthodoxy peter666? It doesn't sound Orthodox to me. I don't think I've ever heard it put like that. You're not denied heaven because of your sins but because you can't do the supernatural by yourself? What happened to Jesus dying for your sins and all that?

PairTheBoard

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

Free will is really a ridiculous concept that does nothing but discredit religion. In fact, it's one of the greatest logical fallacies of all time.

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

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So as far as this subject is concerned people WOULD be robots without free will.


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I guess, but whats the conclusion from this? It only takes the reply that god made the physical universe with laws that can't be broken. Just because the speed of light can't be broken doesn't mean we don't have free will, and from that same perspective we can have free will without the option of choosing to be perfect. We have free will, but a limited # of choices.

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

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But if it is true that no human (aside from Jesus)ever has or ever will behaved perfectly enough to satisfy God then it is because no one has the free will to do that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the idea is that Adam had a chance to not sin. He was not destined to sin. He could have continued to live in a state of grace with god and been ensured of never dying. So it was not God's fault that Adam chose to be disobedient and fall from grace.

However, once Adam did that everything changed. Humanity no longer lived in a state of grace and instead was subject to a Sinful Nature. It's not so much the case that now men were capable of sinning. Essentially they became capable of doing nothing else. Everything a man does is tainted with sin. "Sin" is sometimes translated as "falling short". Everything a man does Falls Short of Perfection. As much as we try to do good works, even those good works are tainted with sin. Nobody has perfect motives. Imperfect motives are a sin. It's the old "lust in your heart" thing we heard from Jimmy Carter.

So no matter how good you try to be you are never "worthy" of God's company. God can't be hangin out with sinners you know. You owe a Sin-Debt to God for all that sinning. You can only be made "Worthy" and have all that massive Sin-Debt of your life paid by the blood of Jesus Christ. His blood washes you clean so you can be Worthy of God's company.

But even though Christ died for All men's sins for all time and all places, it still doesn't count for you unless you ... well I guess this part depends on who you talk to.

Anyway, it all makes sense. It just sucks.

PairTheBoard

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

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So as far as this subject is concerned people WOULD be robots without free will.


[/ QUOTE ]

I can never explain all the difficulties involved with Christianity sufficient to answer your questions to your satisfaction. I can't answer them all to my satisfaction. Not in the sense that it all complies with human reason. There are hard doctrines in the Bible, original sin, predestination, final judgment and punishment.

As for free will, some time ago I posted a long explanation of a new, speculative idea I had which was also somewhat similar to a note in theological book by an author I respect. I can look it up for you though I have to say I can't support it directly from Scripture.

Over the past year or so I've developed a new way of thinking(for me) about these unexplainable difficulties. Of course, the traditional way is to rely on God's goodness and justice. The Bible says that's what we should do and I fully accept that - it's part of faith, and includes the concept that God is absolute reason so whatever appears against reason to us is due to our sinfulness and finitude. In the end, I think that's the only real answer.

But one thing you might want to do is gather together all the logical difficulties you have with theism and then ask who has a better solution? Take free will. What other religion or world view really solves the difficulty? Many atheists just end up saying free will is an illusion and it doesn't matter anyway. Or original sin. How do others explain the utterly horrible way humans behave?

I know this doesn't satisfy. As I said, there are no final detailed answers in this life. What the Bible says about the issues, when taken on faith and trusting that God does love us and is absolute righeousness, is enough for me. And every theologian I've ever encountered who is Bible oriented agrees - I guess that's why faith is given such a large place in Scripture.

And I don't know how and can't fully explain it, but we're not robots.

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

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How do others explain the utterly horrible way humans behave?

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They use the concept of their tyrannical god as a role model!

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

"Over the past year or so I've developed a new way of thinking(for me) about these unexplainable difficulties"

Please elaborate. Also has this forum anything to do with spurring you on to do this?

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

So as far as this subject is concerned people WOULD be robots without free will.


[/ QUOTE ]

I can never explain all the difficulties involved with Christianity sufficient to answer your questions to your satisfaction. I can't answer them all to my satisfaction. Not in the sense that it all complies with human reason. There are hard doctrines in the Bible, original sin, predestination, final judgment and punishment.

As for free will, some time ago I posted a long explanation of a new, speculative idea I had which was also somewhat similar to a note in theological book by an author I respect. I can look it up for you though I have to say I can't support it directly from Scripture.

Over the past year or so I've developed a new way of thinking(for me) about these unexplainable difficulties. Of course, the traditional way is to rely on God's goodness and justice. The Bible says that's what we should do and I fully accept that - it's part of faith, and includes the concept that God is absolute reason so whatever appears against reason to us is due to our sinfulness and finitude. In the end, I think that's the only real answer.

But one thing you might want to do is gather together all the logical difficulties you have with theism and then ask who has a better solution? Take free will. What other religion or world view really solves the difficulty? Many atheists just end up saying free will is an illusion and it doesn't matter anyway. Or original sin. How do others explain the utterly horrible way humans behave?

I know this doesn't satisfy. As I said, there are no final detailed answers in this life. What the Bible says about the issues, when taken on faith and trusting that God does love us and is absolute righeousness, is enough for me. And every theologian I've ever encountered who is Bible oriented agrees - I guess that's why faith is given such a large place in Scripture.

And I don't know how and can't fully explain it, but we're not robots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Allow me to point out that you could avoid these dillemmas and still have your God and your Jesus if you would simply allow for the possibility that one of many of your specific doctrines might be incorrect. For instance

1. God can't see the future. Perhaps he gave up this power specifically to have the relationship with people that you ascribe to him. You once pointed me to a website for Christians who have a similar belief.

2. There are at least a few exceptions to the idea that you must be sure that Jesus is divine to enter heaven. The best example would be someone who has studied the Bible, worships God, and has come to the honest conclusion, after much study, that Jesus's divinity is not true and that GOD WANTS HIM TO REALIZE THAT. So he is honestly trying to please the God of Genesis with that disbelief. This might be a Jew (but probably not a rabbi as he could have ulterior motives for his disbelief) but it dosen't have to be. Again I think even many Fundamentalists think Jews and those who think this way are in a special, savable category.

I said many times that it seems to me that if there is a god he is probably irritated at you, given your talent for arguing the meaningless of a world without him while you screw it up with an insistence on such a precise but maybe wrong description of him.

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

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If your religion wants to claim with certainty that no one deserves heaven, because of their own sinful behavior, then it must be because God has created man in such a way to make it impossible for someone to behave otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats not entirely true

Jesus and Mary were both humans that were not sinful in nature

it just so happens most of us at heart aren't righteous enough not to sin

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

[ QUOTE ]
But wait a minute. Maybe humans are not robots as far as which flavor of ice cream they prefer. But if it is true that no human (aside from Jesus)ever has or ever will behaved perfectly enough to satisfy God then it is because no one has the free will to do that. You can't have it both ways. If your religion wants to claim with certainty that no one deserves heaven, because of their own sinful behavior, then it must be because God has created man in such a way to make it impossible for someone to behave otherwise. So as far as this subject is concerned people WOULD be robots without free will.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm surprised you came to that conclusion.

I'm sure there have been times when you have recognized something in you spurring you on to do the right thing, even if it means discomfort or pain. It's thing that allows us to act outside of our natural robot-likeness and choose what is right.. To me at least - this is what free will is about, and I know that I can choose both right and wrong.

The only thing conclusion that you can come to from this line of thought is that every person CAN do right, but is also guaranteed to do something wrong at least once in their life.

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

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For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from youselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do " (Eph. 2:8,9)

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Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

David,

Your question is more complicated than it seems, even to some believers here. The answer has to do with original sin and its effects, and the state of man before original sin (i.e. Adam and Eve before the fall). Before they had sinned, Adam & Eve were endowed by a fullness of grace that made it easy for them to obey God and his laws. For them to sin, they first had to make a conscious choice to do so (the same as with the angels, though who made their eternal choice in an instant instead of we who take an earthly life-time for same), and unlike us, did not suffer from the weaknesses of will and inordinate natural desires that are a result of original sin. For Adam & Eve as the Summa explains, their reason was subject to God, their lower passions to their reason, and their body to their soul. And as to external forces, and the possibility of their being deceived into sinning, as Eve was deceived by the serpent (Satan), she was only so deceived by same, and thus Adam by her, because they each first sinned by interior pride, which rendered them subject to such temptation. So again, for them, they could easily avoid sin.

For us however, bearing the effects of original sin, it is much easier for us to sin, and requires more willpower and more constant recourse to God for His grace in avoiding sin. We are not forced to sin, and do in fact have free will. But we cannot as easily avoid sin as our first parents. If you want to call that a condtioned or limited free will, in that our reason cannot as easily govern our choices as it could for Adam and Eve pre-fall, I guess you can do so.

(Also to clarify things from a Catholic perspective, you ommit another person who did not sin, which was Mary, the Mother of Jesus/God. She was given the grace of an immaculate conception, and so as with Adam and Eve originally, did not suffer from the effects of original sin. The difference of course with her, is that she fulfilled the will of God and lived according to same. Thus she is the new Eve, as her son Jesus is the new Adam.)

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure there have been times when you have recognized something in you spurring you on to do the right thing, even if it means discomfort or pain. It's thing that allows us to act outside of our natural robot-likeness and choose what is right.. To me at least - this is what free will is about, and I know that I can choose both right and wrong.


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What about those who are not capable of distinguishing right from wrong? Are sociopaths denied entry to heaven due to their lack of an ability to distinguish between what is right and wrong? Sociopaths are as god made them, right? Why should they be punished with an eternity of torment due to their god not giving them a conscience?

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

Hopey,

You are not distinguishing between an inability to distinguish right from wrong, and a lack of caring about same and empathy for others. Sociopaths don't lack the ability to distinguish right from wrong, which can be shown from the fact that they clearly know society not only disapproves of murder for example, but will also punish them for same, regardless of whether they "agree" with those societal norms.

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hopey,

You are not distinguishing between an inability to distinguish right from wrong, and a lack of caring about same and empathy for others. Sociopaths don't lack the ability to distinguish right from wrong, which can be shown from the fact that they clearly know society not only disapproves of murder for example, but will also punish them for same, regardless of whether they "agree" with those societal norms.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not by the usual meaning of sociopath. I'd happily consider murdering people if the only reason not to was society disapproves and would punish me if they catch me.

but I'm not a sociopath because I'm not indifferent to the feelings of others.

chez

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If your religion wants to claim with certainty that no one deserves heaven, because of their own sinful behavior, then it must be because God has created man in such a way to make it impossible for someone to behave otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats not entirely true

Jesus and Mary were both humans that were not sinful in nature

it just so happens most of us at heart aren't righteous enough not to sin

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol Mary?

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

I think maybe you're misunderstanding the concept of original sin?

I don't think Christians believe that if person behaves "perfectly" he can therefore be without sin. Even if a person always made what seemed to be the selfless choice, in every single circumstance, he would still be sinful. This has nothing to do with free will and is considered an inherent part of human nature (since Adam, for those who believe the Adam & Eve story is literal).

So they would say yes, we have the free will to do the right thing every time... but we are still not holy enough for heaven because all humans are inherently defective. Only through Jesus can we overcome this defect of our species.

Maybe I'm way off but I think original sin (man's nature) and free will (man's actions) are considered 2 different things.

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

[ QUOTE ]

"Over the past year or so I've developed a new way of thinking(for me) about these unexplainable difficulties"

Please elaborate. Also has this forum anything to do with spurring you on to do this?


[/ QUOTE ]

Since I began to study apologetics I've been at least as much interested in the negative side (what's wrong with other worldviews) as the positive (defending theism). It's only since I've been arguing the case almost daily that I've seen this perspective as part of the overall argument. It actually derives from a Scripture:

John 6:
65And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
66As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
67So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?"
68Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.

Jesus had just conveyed a "hard" doctrine - the inability of man to be accepted by God on his own merit. This also involves the doctrines of election and predestination. Because of this hard doctrine, many of the disciples abandoned Jesus, probably because they thought it was irrational and also bruised their pride. No doubt these thoughts also occurred to Peter. But when pressed by Jesus, I believe Peter considered the alternative. "Will I now return to Judaism? What about Plato and Aristotle? I could turn Epicurean." But only Jesus had "words of eternal life". No matter how difficult to understand and accept what He was saying, there was simply no attractive alternative.

So my post was simply pointing out that though there are hard doctrines in theism in the overall view it answers the big questions in an ultimately reasonable way. No other worldview does so.

[ QUOTE ]

Allow me to point out that you could avoid these dillemmas and still have your God and your Jesus if you would simply allow for the possibility that one of many of your specific doctrines might be incorrect. For instance

1. God can't see the future


[/ QUOTE ]

As I said, no worldview answers all the big questions. Eliminate from Christian theism all you would like, that won't answer the questions. If God can't see the future then the Bible is wrong about prophesy and predestination, and therefore isn't the Word of God. So now what's my worldview supposed to be? Now what are the answers to those questions?

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2. There are at least a few exceptions to the idea that you must be sure that Jesus is divine to enter heaven


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I don't think believing in the divinity of Jesus is required. Though it seems odd to accept Him as Saviour (which is required) while rejecting His divinity.

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I said many times that it seems to me that if there is a god he is probably irritated at you


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But if the God of the Bible doesn't exist, should I care that some god is irritated at me but not sufficiently so to tell me?

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

[ QUOTE ]
But if the God of the Bible doesn't exist, should I care that some god is irritated at me but not sufficiently so to tell me?


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Unless you're amoral then if god exists he has told you whats right and wrong. The caring is built in to the system.

chez

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think maybe you're misunderstanding the concept of original sin?

I don't think Christians believe that if person behaves "perfectly" he can therefore be without sin. Even if a person always made what seemed to be the selfless choice, in every single circumstance, he would still be sinful. This has nothing to do with free will and is considered an inherent part of human nature (since Adam, for those who believe the Adam & Eve story is literal).

So they would say yes, we have the free will to do the right thing every time... but we are still not holy enough for heaven because all humans are inherently defective. Only through Jesus can we overcome this defect of our species.

Maybe I'm way off but I think original sin (man's nature) and free will (man's actions) are considered 2 different things.

[/ QUOTE ]

This type of argument dates back to Augustine/Pelagius, with Augustine arguing for original sin as a very physical thing passed down from generation to generation and Pelagius arguing that it had a more social character.

Anselm argued for the necessity of sin. There's a catholic saying something like "blessed sin, that we were given such a glorious redeemer." Anselm's thought is pretty close to what you are talking about revots. As Adam and Eve disobeyed God, we must repay him. But more than give back what we took, we must pay for the offense as well (like if I steal something from you I can't just give it back and make everything ok). If everyone were to live a completely sinfree life, we could cover the "interest" but never the "principal". So now we owe God a debt that we can't pay. God can pay it but that's not right for him to pay his own debt, so along comes Jesus as a god-man.

Luther would completely agree with Sklansky's assessment.

The Catholic thinker Toland rejected the Augustinian notion of necessity in the late 17th century, writing that we are responsible for our own sin.

The bottom line is that there is no unified concept of original sin. A lot of people use it just to refer to the fact that we often do things we don't truly want to do. As for the conservative Christian view, I think it's a bit of a stretch too.

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

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But if the God of the Bible doesn't exist, should I care that some god is irritated at me but not sufficiently so to tell me?

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Change the word "doesn't" to "does", and you could be making an athiest/agnostic argument.

Anyway my guess is that most Christians think that yes we do have free will, but (even leaving aside original sin which labels us defective at birth) a sinless life is an impossible standard for humans. Here is part of a prayer said in Catholic mass every Sunday:

"I confess to almighty God,
and to you,
my brothers and sisters,
that I have sinned through my own fault,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done,
and in what I have failed to do..."

Given these standards who can possibly be sinless? Who has never even had a THOUGHT of jealousy or vanity or selfishness etc.? Who has never committed a sin of omission? It is an impossible standard.

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

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People by their natural actions cannot merit Heaven, not because their actions are sinful, but because they are natural actions and not supernatural. They can merit heaven by cooperating with the grace of God (a supernatural action for a supernatural place) if they so choose. How would that make them a robot?

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Is that Orthodoxy peter666? It doesn't sound Orthodox to me. I don't think I've ever heard it put like that. You're not denied heaven because of your sins but because you can't do the supernatural by yourself? What happened to Jesus dying for your sins and all that?

PairTheBoard

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It's true that we can't go to Heaven because of Original Sin, however, that was a consequence of actions taken after the fact and was not a condition inherent in our nature. Basically, we were NOT preprogrammed NOT to go to Heaven, which seems to be what Sklansky had interpreted, along with John Calvin.

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

Again paying $100 each to you and Not Ready to have a debate on this forum of at least five substantial posts each.

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

Once you admit that "original sin" takes away some free will the discussion is over. On the other hand you say that Catholics accept the possibility of a pious Jew or Muslim being saved.

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

"I don't think believing in the divinity of Jesus is required. Though it seems odd to accept Him as Saviour (which is required) while rejecting His divinity."

Would that mean something like assigning to him the position of God's human representative where God helps him perform some miracles (including perhaps his own ressurection)? If so, what's so odd about that?

But you still didn't respond to my question about what is the fate of someone who thinks his total disbelief in Jesus is pleasing to God.

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Once you admit that "original sin" takes away some free will the discussion is over.

[/ QUOTE ]


Not so. For we aren't talking about one's salvation being determined by one's action in one act. Even if for example, we determine a certain person had 70% of the free will of Adam, and thus the greater possiblity of sinning, it nonetheless remains that over the course of a lifetime, that person mostly has free will, and that furthermore, can get "extra" as it were, by recourse to God. In poker terms, if your EV on a particular hand is 70% on the flop allin, you are going to lose your stack 30% of the time. But long term, you're getting a win. And the long term, the period of one's life on earth, is the time frame in question generally. By "generally" I mean that if you murder someone and get hit by a car right after, you're probably toast. But that will only be because you've forfeited many other chances in the course of life and thus aren't getting another here to repent before dying.

Also I want to emphasize again, that even not having the more easy ability to not sin that Adam and Eve originally had, one can still get help from God's grace to shore up what is lacking. As great as God's Judgement is, His Mercy is greater yet, *if* one asks for and is willing to receive it.

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also I want to emphasize again, that even not having the more easy ability to not sin that Adam and Eve originally had...

[/ QUOTE ]

So you believe that Adam and Eve were literal people who literally chose to fall from tangible communion with God? If yes, how long ago do you think this happened, approximately? How do you address the glaring problem of oral tradition being inconsistent with the Fall?

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

Sub,

There is only a "glaring problem" in your mind and the artificial limitations you wish to put on oral tradition so as to manufacture a problem. Furthermore it is not even necessary to refer to oral tradition, as Genesis clearly states what the effects of the fall were, even if not using that term.

P.S. I'm not going to hijack this thread by a further response on this topic.

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

Lol. Send me a PM then. I have no idea what is artificial or manufactured about imagining that people might talk about the most important event in human history.

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Once you admit that "original sin" takes away some free will the discussion is over.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. BluffThis your talk of percentages is quite unconvincing imo. I don't understand the concept of having free-will "most of the time." For me to have free-will now, I must have had free-will one second ago. For me to have free-will one second ago, I must have had free-will two seconds ago. And so on and so on. The whole concept of free-will is bothersome then even from a non-religious perspective because we had no control over our origination.

Also, the word free-will itself is really troublesome, and it is important to make the distinction between freely choosing to do this or that with my money vs. freely choosing in matters of religion (where money is part of this world, and religion here refers to that which is above our capacity).

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Unless you're amoral then if god exists he has told you whats right and wrong. The caring is built in to the system.


[/ QUOTE ]

What about Hitler's system? What about the Khmer Rouge system? How do we know which system to follow? What's amoral?

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Unless you're amoral then if god exists he has told you whats right and wrong. The caring is built in to the system.


[/ QUOTE ]

What about Hitler's system? What about the Khmer Rouge system? How do we know which system to follow? What's amoral?

[/ QUOTE ]
Amoral is having no sense of right and wrong.

What's Hitler got to do with why you should care?

chez

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

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Change the word "doesn't" to "does", and you could be making an athiest/agnostic argument.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is wrong because we are told.

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Given these standards who can possibly be sinless?


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Matthew 5:28
but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

20And He was saying, "That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man.
21"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,
22deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness.
23"All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man."

Matthew 5:48
"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Matthew 19:
25When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?"
26And looking at them Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

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If so, what's so odd about that?


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It's odd because Jesus and the rest of the New Testament claimed He was divine. It's odd to accept the rest of Scripture and deny that doctrine.

[ QUOTE ]

But you still didn't respond to my question about what is the fate of someone who thinks his total disbelief in Jesus is pleasing to God.


[/ QUOTE ]

The Bible is clear that if you reject Christ you can't be saved.

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

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What's Hitler got to do with why you should care?


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Maybe if the God of the Bible doesn't exist I would be a Nazi. Why would I think there's anything wrong about it, or that some relative god wouldn't like it?

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

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[ QUOTE ]

What's Hitler got to do with why you should care?


[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe if the God of the Bible doesn't exist I would be a Nazi. Why would I think there's anything wrong about it, or that some relative god wouldn't like it?

[/ QUOTE ]
If you're amoral then you wouldn't think there's anything wrong with it as you would have no sense of right and wrong.

but if like most of us you do have a sense of right and wrong then you have no choice but to care, its part of your nature.

chez

Re: We Are All Sinners With Free Will?
 

[ QUOTE ]

but if like most of us you do have a sense of right and wrong then you have no choice but to care, its part of your nature


[/ QUOTE ]

I think we've worn out this road by now.