Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

with the FTP bot issue, I think the time has come that Stars allows players to datamine. Dataminers are actually the best defense against bots. If it's open to all players to do it, I don't see a specific advantage given.

By not allowing players to datamine, I can only assume that there are very shady things going on at Stars.

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

I agree with you, and I datamine on FTP.

However, I feel that datamining hurts the integrity of the game as well (albeit not nearly as much as botting does).

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

I agree...as I have paid for a subscription service for Stars/Party..

however, the only way round it is to pay for the subscription service...as you can't physically get all the hands from your level..

Allowing datamining isn't the answer...more stringent examination of playing styles needs to be used....that or some sort of activation key that Party semi-introduced....as allowing datamining means that the keener players or players with the facility to datamine would be able to search for discrepancies in players' styles and the casual/recreational player still wouldn't bother...

I would pay the site directly for the HH's at a particular level...and cut out the middle man...

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dataminers are actually the best defense against bots.



[/ QUOTE ]

Not even close to true. Internal investigations have access to the entire database as well as mouse movements/whatever else the client may be recording.

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

it would be better for the games as a whole if people actually learned to play poker

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

[ QUOTE ]
it would be better for the games as a whole if people actually learned to play poker

[/ QUOTE ]

?

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

[ QUOTE ]
it would be better for the games as a whole if people actually learned to play poker

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL

"You're disrespecting the game!"

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

[ QUOTE ]
it would be better for the games as a whole if people actually learned to play poker

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, don't be ridiculous. That's not the problem. The problem is other players winning.

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dataminers are actually the best defense against bots.



[/ QUOTE ]

Not even close to true. Internal investigations have access to the entire database as well as mouse movements/whatever else the client may be recording.

[/ QUOTE ]

The site may have access to the most efficient tools, but 3rd party watchdogs keep them honest.

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

I made a more in depth post on the FTP bot thread re datamining but I'll post the cliffs notes version here: Expansion of datamining to sites that don't currently allow it is a bad idea, IMO. The players should not police the games, the sites should do so. The players should call out the sites publicly when they fail to fulfill that duty.

Dear Stars No Datamining Please
 

No dataming.

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

[ QUOTE ]
The players should call out the sites publicly when they fail to fulfill that duty.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can the public accomplish this without the abaility to datamine?

Re: Dear Stars No Datamining Please
 

rgold79 posted this in the bot thread:
[ QUOTE ]
To your second point the players should not be the ones policing the game. We pay these sites rake with the expectation that they will run the games fairly and allocate resources in order to legitimate their claims. People should call out the sites for not doing their jobs when they don't (like here), but we don't need a network of vigilantes.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I agree with this 100%. However, if PokerStars (I'm don't mean to single them out, I'm talking about any site that doesn't put measures in place to prevent bots) doesn't get their act together and start ACTIVELY looking out for bots, then they should at least help their players help them.

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dataminers are actually the best defense against bots.



[/ QUOTE ]

Not even close to true. Internal investigations have access to the entire database as well as mouse movements/whatever else the client may be recording.

[/ QUOTE ]

The site may have access to the most efficient tools, but 3rd party watchdogs keep them honest.

[/ QUOTE ]

Many 3rd parties are going to try to exploit the bots themselves. Overall I don't really think that datamining (on a large scale) is ultimately good for the game (irrespective of the bots it may catch). Keep the pressure on the sites to do their own policing.

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dataminers are actually the best defense against bots.



[/ QUOTE ]

Not even close to true. Internal investigations have access to the entire database as well as mouse movements/whatever else the client may be recording.

[/ QUOTE ]

The site may have access to the most efficient tools, but 3rd party watchdogs keep them honest.

[/ QUOTE ]

Many 3rd parties are going to try to exploit the bots themselves. Overall I don't really think that datamining (on a large scale) is ultimately good for the game (irrespective of the bots it may catch). Keep the pressure on the sites to do their own policing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. These aren't going to be disinterested 3rd parties. These are going to be people who want to look for bots in their spare time but who also will be happy to mostly collect data on their future opponents. If Stars wanted to outsource their security to a legitimately disinterested party, I doubt anyone would have a problem with that.

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

[ QUOTE ]
By not allowing players to datamine, I can only assume that there are very shady things going on at Stars.

[/ QUOTE ]

C'mon now, that's a stretch.

If anything, it could be argued by some that Stars is too aggressive with its bot detection. Wasn't TeddyFBI's mom accused of being a bot?

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The players should call out the sites publicly when they fail to fulfill that duty.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can the public accomplish this without the abaility to datamine?

[/ QUOTE ]

At some point though you have to trust the sites to do the job themselves, just like with the 'rigging issue'. If the sites feel it is in their best interest to crush botting then they will. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Keep on them.

Plus, botting is really in its infancy. How much longer before info taken from the client is pretty much the only way to detect a bot? Datamining is not a long term bot detection solution.

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
By not allowing players to datamine, I can only assume that there are very shady things going on at Stars.

[/ QUOTE ]

C'mon now, that's a stretch.

If anything, it could be argued by some that Stars is too aggressive with its bot detection. Wasn't TeddyFBI's mom accused of being a bot?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think they're being too aggressive. Right now AFAIK they're only looking for certain software on the player's computer. I believe the issue with TeddyFBI's mom was that she had some software that was setting off a false positive (although I might be wrong). However, if the bot is completely homemade, then Stars has no way of detecting in besides looking at the bot's tendencies, history, and using one of those things that they have on most online forms were you input the number shown on an image on the screen.

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

Dear Stars:

1) DON'T allow data-mining;

2) Take more effective measures to prevent data-mining;

3) Take *pro-active* measures to detect and eliminate bot accounts;

4) Get rid of HUDs;

5) Reduce the number of tables that can be played to 4-6.

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it would be better for the games as a whole if people actually learned to play poker

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL

"You're disrespecting the game!"

[/ QUOTE ]

I forgot to say:

'He called me with JACK high!'

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dear Stars:

1) DON'T allow data-mining;

2) Take more effective measures to prevent data-mining;

3) Take *pro-active* measures to detect and eliminate bot accounts;

4)Get rid of HUDs;

5)Reduce the number of tables that can be played to 4-6.

[/ QUOTE ]

Get rid of HUDs?? reduce nr. of table....this guy is a joke

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dear Stars:

1) DON'T allow data-mining;

2) Take more effective measures to prevent data-mining;

3) Take *pro-active* measures to detect and eliminate bot accounts;

4)Get rid of HUDs;

5)Reduce the number of tables that can be played to 4-6.

[/ QUOTE ]

Get rid of HUDs?? reduce nr. of table....this guy is a joke

[/ QUOTE ]


Can't win without software aids? Not willing to take the long-term view to keep the games good instead of skinning the sheep faster than they can be replaced?? . . . this guy is a JOKE!

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

ugh, please dont

heres a better idea. Have someone who works for stars analyze all the hand history data that they can gather internally

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

ok....I just want datamining and this seemed to be a good excuse

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dear Stars:

1) DON'T allow data-mining;

2) Take more effective measures to prevent data-mining;

3) Take *pro-active* measures to detect and eliminate bot accounts;

4)Get rid of HUDs;

5)Reduce the number of tables that can be played to 4-6.

[/ QUOTE ]

Get rid of HUDs?? reduce nr. of table....this guy is a joke

[/ QUOTE ]


Can't win without software aids? Not willing to take the long-term view to keep the games good instead of skinning the sheep faster than they can be replaced?? . . . this guy is a JOKE!

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with all of your points except #5 regarding the number of tables. Sites should allow unlimited tables so long as the user can competently play that amount (i.e., not timing out constantly). Maybe simply lessen the timebanks and the incompetent 12 tablers will be forced to go back to 6.

It really is sickening to me, the overwhelming voice of 2+2 hudbot users, who just want to rape and pillage these games for everything they are worth right now with no vision to the long term sustainabilty of the game.

The fish inevitably find out. Some hudbot regs end up talking about how so and so is 18/14/3 etc and the fish asks what they are talking about. They don't want to know that people are tracking their every move. They don't want to find out that people have independent datamining PC's running 24/7 to find out every detail about there play. And they don't want to play a hand of poker once every 2 minutes cuz 4 hudbot users are timing out every decision.

The fish want a smooth friendly experience where they get to feel like they have just as good a chance at winning as anybody else. And they will keep coming back for more. And good players will keep fleecing them time and time again.
And it won't end in 4 months or 6 months or a year. It will keep happening for the next decade and beyond (assuming no legal hurdles).

BT, thanks for being a voice of reason. Wish there were a few more of them around here.

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dear Stars:

1) DON'T allow data-mining;

2) Take more effective measures to prevent data-mining;

3) Take *pro-active* measures to detect and eliminate bot accounts;

4) Get rid of HUDs;

5) Reduce the number of tables that can be played to 4-6.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT except for #5. The # of tables one could play should be debated more.

I use my HUD like a crutch, but would gladly give it up no one was allowed to use them.

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

[ QUOTE ]
BT, thanks for being a voice of reason. Wish there were a few more of them around here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dear Stars:

1) DON'T allow data-mining;

2) Take more effective measures to prevent data-mining;

3) Take *pro-active* measures to detect and eliminate bot accounts;

4) Get rid of HUDs;

5) Reduce the number of tables that can be played to 4-6.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT except for #5. The # of tables one could play should be debated more.

I use my HUD like a crutch, but would gladly give it up no one was allowed to use them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I tend to agree - between PT and the notes, the effect of no HUD would be negligible anyway (though I probably would have to shave 1-2 tables *shrugs*). I mean I don't want them to be banned, but it wouldn't be the worst thing...

Now, banning poker tracker? Ban worthy suggestion [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

Multi-tablers are way worse for the games than HUDs.

In fact, nits are the worst thing for the games. An ante might fix that, but probably not.

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

[ QUOTE ]
An ante might fix that, but probably not.

[/ QUOTE ]


DEFINITELY would fix it. See Sklansky's thread in the archives in the HSNL forum and his advice to object when the "hot-shot" lags demand an ante.

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

[ QUOTE ]
Multi-tablers are way worse for the games than HUDs.

In fact, nits are the worst thing for the games. An ante might fix that, but probably not.

[/ QUOTE ]

HUD's allow people to multitable more though. HUD's are bots in a way. I only use em cuz I don't want every multitabling monkey to have that edge over me. I really do think they are unethical. It should be up to the multitabler to take notes and pay attention to what's going on. Not a HUDbot. Take away the HUDs and u cut down on multitabling.
There will always be nits.

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

bluffthis
you're dead on
people wanna take turn paying rake while 12 tabling with other 12 tablers while all using huds together and make 4 dollars an hour

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

wow everyone in here sounds like Tuff-Fish.. wtf is going on?

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

There's a publicly available piece of software to do this -- see http://chessvortex.com/pht/shh.php. I don't have any connection with this site nor do I have a financial interest in this posting. Mods - obviously remove the link if it is a problem.

Also, Stars is obviously aware of Stars Hand Tracker (as they warn people for using it when they're logged in according to the website) so your account is at risk if you choose to use it from your IP/machine.

But I have experimented with it in the past (although I've never gotten involved in HH datamining on a commercial level) and I'm certain it's free of spyware and keylogger if that's a concern of yours -- I had it checked out before I tried it.

But the bottom line is that anyone can do this with even the slightest bit of initiative and investment.

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

[ QUOTE ]
ok....I just want datamining and this seemed to be a good excuse

[/ QUOTE ]

You can already datamine and theres nothing they will do about it. There was even an application advertised on these boards. That app never made it onto their prohibited applications list. Stars needs to enforce their own rules instead of using the honor system and right now thats what they're doing with datamining. Any decent programmer could whip up something in a matter of a few hours anyways.

edit: lol, see the post directly above mine

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

Stars Hand Tracker doesn't open tables for you?

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dear Stars:

1) DON'T allow data-mining;

2) Take more effective measures to prevent data-mining;

3) Take *pro-active* measures to detect and eliminate bot accounts;

4) Get rid of HUDs;



[/ QUOTE ]

Major dittos. The reason I play on Stars is that it seems like the most straight up site to play on. The use of HUD and other devices IMHO is just a different form of cheating. Learn to play the game instead of reading statistics. I am amazed they allow HUD and other programs like that. Maybe Im wrong but it just seems wrong to allow these things. It is CHEATING.

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

[ QUOTE ]
Stars Hand Tracker doesn't open tables for you?

[/ QUOTE ]
No, but getting an add-on program to do that isn't that tough either.

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

[ QUOTE ]
Major dittos. The reason I play on Stars is that it seems like the most straight up site to play on. The use of HUD and other devices IMHO is just a different form of cheating. Learn to play the game instead of reading statistics. I am amazed they allow HUD and other programs like that. Maybe Im wrong but it just seems wrong to allow these things. It is CHEATING.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it isn't cheating.

Re: Dear Stars: Allow Datamining
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Major dittos. The reason I play on Stars is that it seems like the most straight up site to play on. The use of HUD and other devices IMHO is just a different form of cheating. Learn to play the game instead of reading statistics. I am amazed they allow HUD and other programs like that. Maybe Im wrong but it just seems wrong to allow these things. It is CHEATING.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it isn't cheating.

[/ QUOTE ]

But it is using a computer program to record information that you yourself arent collecting and disecting. Its just another form of a bot. Players should play based on their own abilities, not having a computer record stats, see a number (like vpip) and then you simply raise or fold based off that number and not your knowledge of the player.

Anyone using pokertracker and PAHUD has no ability to bitch about bots.

The only reason that they are complaining is that they dont have access to them, if pokertracker was only available to someone who wrote it they would be screaming about its use as well.