60 days of losing
 

I've just recently quit my job and started playing fulltime. I've built a decent size bankroll the past 7 years playing partime and could play 20/40. Put it this way i lost 60 days straight and i dont get it. Does these losing streaks happen to everyone [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: 60 days of losing
 

yes it is possible

how many hands do you believed
youve played in this period?

post some hand histories

idk whether to attribute it
to variance or poor play

Re: 60 days of losing
 

I think they do come along unfortunately. I went through a small bad streak of 2 months of completely being card dead. Hardly a hand to limp in with. I rechecked my play and I was simply very card dead. We are talking not even a suited 2 or gapper to play. Harly andy pairs. Probably not as many hours as you put in but still it was tough. Only good thing is that I really limited my losses and I beleive that I showed great patience and discipline during that time. It made me a lot better player in a way.

There is some old thread here somewhere about some guy who went through a really really long & bad losing streak. I think Bernie may know the one I'm speaking of. IT may be worth trying to find it and reading all the threads.

Re: 60 days of losing
 

When I run out of gas I leave the game for a while. I return when I feel I am ready. One month or 6, it doesn't matter. I always play better when I come back after reflecting on my play.

Re: 60 days of losing
 

Is this online or live? I can't imagine losing 60 days straight live or anywhere near it for that matter. I don't think I've lost more than 5 days straight playing live.

Re: 60 days of losing
 

This is live playing 10-13 hours a day

Re: 60 days of losing
 

graph?

Re: 60 days of losing
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is live playing 10-13 hours a day

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I'm curious about where this is and what the game conditions are i.e. typical loose games, passive, aggro? Are you up to playing those hours? Are you putting them in sometimes in an attempt to get even or win? Are you practicing good game selection or are you staying in a game that's not good because you feel the need to put in your hours? These are things I think you should look at.

I'll mention something wise someone told me years ago:

'There is a difference in playing for a side income and playing when you 'have' to win.'

IOW, you don't have your day job anymore. I think you may want to examine your game to see if you're pressing too much and 'trying' to win. If you try to win because you need the money you're probably playing badly and are going to lose.

Re: 60 days of losing
 

ah 60 days of live losing is what, 18 000 hands ? That's like a week and half of losing online. My god yes that happens. Don't worry about it, keep playing your A game, and maybe post some hands you feel you misplayed.

Re: 60 days of losing
 

Drop down to a lower game. It sounds like you way off your best game. Drop down, beat up on lesser players, get your mojo back, come back to the level you were playing.

Re: 60 days of losing
 

Why are you playing so many hours a day? If you worked a day job that many hours, you are killing yourself. At $20-40 I don't think you will make enough as a winning player to justify "killing yourself"(A lawyer or something making 500K+ a year may be another story).

And 60 straight losing sessions live? I disagree that somehow that is a normal occurence. I've heard of good players with 10-15 sessions str8 of losing, but never anywhere close to 60. I've had 20 in a row, but like Frond said, that was entirely due to being card dead. My losses were minimal because I was playing a hand like once every 2 hours. It was at $6-12 and $4-8 and my total losses on the 20 session streak were around $1200.

I can't imagine you are playing an A level game losing 60 straight sessions.

But assuming it is just a bad streak, try this....

View each session as a day of work. Arrive at work well rested(ie ensure you get 8 hours of sleep at least). Look for the easiest game at the level you are playing. If you play in Vegas, play the Mirage $10-20 or the Bellagio $15-30, not at Wynn. If Los Angeles, play the HP $15-30 or Commerce $20-40, not at Bike. Play at the time when the games are easiest. If you normally play days, switch up and play evenings. Maybe take a few days off and wait for the easier games on Friday. Remember, all these dolts have been up since 6 or 7am and have been working all day. They are tired already when they arrive at the casino. You are alert, refreshed, have slept in until 3pm, and are just starting your day. Eat when you wake up, and run errands or get a bit of exercise. Don't be lazy. Head off to the casino. Watch the games when you arrive and find the easiest spot. Sit for a couple hours, then take a 15 minute break like you would a normal job. Walk around, use the restroom, get something to drink. Chat with people you know like you might on a break at a job. Sit back down for another couple hours. After that, take your 30 minute lunch break. Eat a good nutritious meal, not something that is heavy and will make you sleepy. Get like a salad and half sandwich or something. Eat away from the table. Enjoy your time away from the table. Then go back refocused and play another couple hours. Take another break, just like you would at a regular job. Play your last two hours and leave regardless of game conditions and regardless of how much you are ahead or behind. Its just another day on the job. If you play somewhere where its worth playing for a living, the same good game will be there the next day.

I busto'ed in my attempts as a pro for reasons other than my play in the main game I played. But I averaged 1 1/2 BB an hour at a time when 1BB was the standard. I followed the above rotation religiously and as a result, never went on tilt and never went into an emotional state or mental state where I was not playing my very best. I can't say I follow the above anymore, but I'm no pro and play entirely for recreation now. If I was to play as a pro, I would stick to the above routine. I see no one adhere to something like this schedule and I think they make a mistake by not doing so.

Re: 60 days of losing
 

AMEN. It's a big psychological difference if you're playing w/ the rent and it affects most people's game for sure.

Re: 60 days of losing
 

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I went through a small bad streak of 2 months of completely being card dead.


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I've had 20 in a row, but like Frond said, that was entirely due to being card dead.


[/ QUOTE ]

i dont get it
what does this mean

Re: 60 days of losing
 

It could be a combination of things, or any one of the following: you're not as good as you think, you're having bad luck, you're not playing well, you're playing too long or perhaps you're not selecting your games well.

Do you have a separate poker bankroll from your living expenses? When I started playing full time after I lost my job and I was playing w/ the rent I found that I lost much, much more frequently than ever before (60 days seems too much to be just an negative swing, so I think it's a combination of the above). It was sick and it was ridiculous! I had been a winning player for at least 10 years!!

I then gave it some thought and I realized that it was difficult for me to play when I was facing a big bet and I looked down and thought, hmm if I called that I'd be calling away my mortgage for the month (if I ever think that when playing any more I get up and leave since my head just isn't in it. I don't care how good the game is). I also gave thought about every session I played and realized that I made some stupid mistakes. I decided to drop down in stakes to where I could have a bankroll just for poker and eventually I built it back up again and now I'm playing a game that's even bigger than originally.

Be honest with yourself. It takes more than talent and a bankroll to make it. You have to be disciplined. Stop playing such long sessions. Try limiting it to maybe 6-8 hours and even take a lunch after 3-4 hours like you would at a job or at least snack frequently. If you're tired don't play. I've left many, many good games because either I didn't have my A..or B game that day, or I was tired, or I just wasn't into the game. Of course I've played in many good games when I didn't have my A or B game because it was so juicy and I was so much better than everyone else even w/ my C game. It's important to know yourself and know when you play best.

Re: 60 days of losing
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've just recently quit my job and started playing fulltime. I've built a decent size bankroll the past 7 years playing partime and could play 20/40. Put it this way i lost 60 days straight and i dont get it. Does these losing streaks happen to everyone [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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I have a question: do you mean a net loss over 60 days, or actually 60 days straight? If it is 60 days straight then you most certainly don't have an edge, as this is almost impossible for any player no matter how poor.

Suppose you were a break even player with a 50:50 chance of winning every session. You know what the odds of 60 consecutive losing sessions is? 1/2^60. I calculate that to one out of 1,152,921,504,606,846,976. Not possible.

What are the real figures?

And you asked if that happened to everyone: considering that the odds against are over a million times bigger than the population of the earth, I guess not. To accomplish this one would have to have the goal of leaving a loser every day. It could not be done by accident.

Re: 60 days of losing
 

18k hands live vs online are totally different... the online game is more aggressive and tougher.. thus your winrate is going to be signficantly lower... i'd start being worried around 5 and being alarmed around 12... i can't imagine what 60 would be like especially at 12hr sessions...

you have to continuously be vigilant about your game... reading books, the forums are valuable tools.. but it is ultimately going to be up to yourself and being objective enough to critique your game because at 60 days, i wouldn't rule out variance, but it probably isn't the most likely culprit here...

Re: 60 days of losing
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I went through a small bad streak of 2 months of completely being card dead.


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I've had 20 in a row, but like Frond said, that was entirely due to being card dead.


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i dont get it
what does this mean

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It means that he doesn't keep good records. The chance of a break even player losing 20 sessions in a row is about one in a million.

Re: 60 days of losing
 

I think my problem has more to do with playing and overthinking each hand. When i worked a fulltime job i played the game naturally. Now, everytime i place a bet i think of my mortgage payments and you cant win thinking this way. Still have a decent size roll after years of playing partime. Gonna take some time off and see if i can get my mind screwed on straight. The other thing i can do is go back working fulltime and playing partime poker.

[ QUOTE ]
I then gave it some thought and I realized that it was difficult for me to play when I was facing a big bet and I looked down and thought, hmm if I called that I'd be calling away my mortgage for the month (if I ever think that when playing any more I get up and leave since my head just isn't in it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 60 days of losing
 

i went on a 3 month bad streak after quitting my job. true story. i played pretty tight the whole time too. it got so bad that one day i turned quads and got nervous.

remember, jennifer harman a few years back had to borrow money. she said she went a year where she just couldnt win.

bad streaks r real.

Re: 60 days of losing
 

Not a bad idea at all. Play at a limit where it doesn't bother you to lose.

Re: 60 days of losing
 

not a bad idea at all

Re: 60 days of losing
 

[ QUOTE ]
i went on a 3 month bad streak after quitting my job. true story. i played pretty tight the whole time too. it got so bad that one day i turned quads and got nervous.

remember, jennifer harman a few years back had to borrow money. she said she went a year where she just couldnt win.

bad streaks r real.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but usually a bad streak is a downward spiral. You win $3000 monday and drop $5000 on tuesday. You go on an extended streak where you might lose 3 out of every 5 sessions. And sometimes you lose 3 or 4 sessions in a row.

But if somebody actually has a 20 session losing streak when averaging 10 hrs or more per session, then the chance that that person is playing with an edge is almost nill.

Re: 60 days of losing
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I went through a small bad streak of 2 months of completely being card dead.


[/ QUOTE ]



[ QUOTE ]

I've had 20 in a row, but like Frond said, that was entirely due to being card dead.


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i dont get it
what does this mean

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It means that he doesn't keep good records. The chance of a break even player losing 20 sessions in a row is about one in a million.

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Well whatever. What it means to me is that I was playing at no foldem tables and being dealt absolute garbage. Literally no playable hands. One time even 3 1/2 hours before I played a hand outside the blinds(I flopped top two with AQ and lost [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]). Anyway, it was 20 sessions over a 2 year period though most sessions were only 3-4 hours or so. I never even dropped more than one rack in a session because I was rarely getting dealt playable hands.

Re: 60 days of losing
 

Playing full time is a big difference from playing on the side. Cut way back on your hours, play shorter sessions, take a lot of breaks and ease into a full time schedule. It takes some time to adjust to the grind. Get a part time job if you have to in the mean time.

Re: 60 days of losing
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I went through a small bad streak of 2 months of completely being card dead.


[/ QUOTE ]



[ QUOTE ]

I've had 20 in a row, but like Frond said, that was entirely due to being card dead.


[/ QUOTE ]

i dont get it
what does this mean

[/ QUOTE ]

It means that he doesn't keep good records. The chance of a break even player losing 20 sessions in a row is about one in a million.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well whatever. What it means to me is that I was playing at no foldem tables and being dealt absolute garbage. Literally no playable hands. One time even 3 1/2 hours before I played a hand outside the blinds(I flopped top two with AQ and lost [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]). Anyway, it was 20 sessions over a 2 year period though most sessions were only 3-4 hours or so. I never even dropped more than one rack in a session because I was rarely getting dealt playable hands.

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No, what ever it means is that that is the probability, one in a million. 50% to the 20th power is .000000953674, that's just over one in a million. One in a million is not an expression but the actual probability of a break even player losing 20 sessions in a row. This happening to a winning player is power ball type odds. 60 sessions is astronomical and requires someone to be worse than simply a losing player, but someone who does things deliberately to force a losing outcome.

Re: 60 days of losing
 

[ QUOTE ]
ah 60 days of live losing is what, 18 000 hands ? That's like a week and half of losing online. My god yes that happens. Don't worry about it, keep playing your A game, and maybe post some hands you feel you misplayed.

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Except online your edge is usually much smaller since you're playing against tougher opponents and multi tabling. 60 straight days of losing live is very unlikely to be due solely to running bad.

Re: 60 days of losing
 

As emerson points out, it's unrealistic to believe the original poster is a winning player at this level. A break-even player may have a 50/50 chance of being behind after 60 days, but it's a quintillion-to-1 shot that he has 60 straight losing days due to "bad luck" (i.e. variance).

Even a very bad player is extremely unlikely to see 60 straight losing days. For example, a really horrible 20/40 player who loses 5BB/hr and has an hourly standard deviation of 15BB/hr will be approx 32500:1 to have 60 straight losing 10hr sessions.

It's much more likely that the poster is going out of his way to lose or that the post is a fraud.

Re: 60 days of losing
 

man, i got to tell u. my 3 month bad streak was freakish. the first month i played every day and went to the cashiers window once or twice. i started to limit my play to maybe 3 times a week for the next few months and it was the same thing. i'd play tight and always start the session out stuck and usually go completely card dead, session after session after session. this was 6/12 ,imit mostly. i would honsetly say that those 2 months of limited play of 3 times a week, i never saw the cashiers window once. in most of my sessions, people would comment about how tight i was. it wasnt that i was so tight as it was the rags i would constantly get dealt, and when i did get big hands, they would get beat very easily.....even in heads up situations. these things happened over and over and over and over.

i had to quit the game.

a few years later, i took the game back up. i been a pro now for 3 years and i play the same tight game i always did. i know more now than i did back in my 3 month losing streak but from what i know now, my game during the losing streak was good. it wasnt that my game was bad at all. it was simply a freakish losing streak that after some investigating, i heard happens to most poker players at least once in theyre life times. some players never encounter it.

mike caro said that unexplainable and illogical things happen in poker. how it happens defies logical reasoning......but it does happen.

i can tell u other weird stories too:

recently, i went 0/25 on draws containg 8 outs or more.

over a 4 month period of playing 30 hours a week, i made 5 fullhouses.

over the period of one month and playing about 30 hours a week, i didnt make one flush.

this is all single table live play. mostly limit and spread limit. 20/40 to 40/80 limit and 2 3 5 spread limit.

true stories

ARE YOU PLAYING ON FULL TILT? Re: 60 days of losing/
 

When I got off of full tilt robbing me, I started to get normal results again.

Re: 60 days of losing
 

"It could be a combination of things, or any one of the following: you're not as good as you think, you're having bad luck, you're not playing well, you're playing too long or perhaps you're not selecting your games well."

There is also a very small possibility that you are being flat out cheated.

Re: 60 days of losing
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is live playing 10-13 hours a day

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You are doing something drastically wrong in your approach. You should seek the help of a coach.

Re: 60 days of losing
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think my problem has more to do with playing and overthinking each hand. When i worked a fulltime job i played the game naturally. Now, everytime i place a bet i think of my mortgage payments and you cant win thinking this way. Still have a decent size roll after years of playing partime. Gonna take some time off and see if i can get my mind screwed on straight. The other thing i can do is go back working fulltime and playing partime poker.

[ QUOTE ]
I then gave it some thought and I realized that it was difficult for me to play when I was facing a big bet and I looked down and thought, hmm if I called that I'd be calling away my mortgage for the month (if I ever think that when playing any more I get up and leave since my head just isn't in it.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the problem. You think about the mortgage payment at the table.

I quit my job 16 months ago. My wife loves her job and I have a military retirement, so all I have to come up with for expenses is 1/2 the food bill and money for my clothes and misc.
I started with an 8k bankroll for 10/20 Limit, so I had a float. Plus I had put a little over 4k in a Roth IRA that had grown, for the purpose of eventually buying a new car for myself.
So, I have never thought about the chips as money since I quit my job.
I don't even keep track of how much I'm up during a session. I buy in for $500 and put them in 4 stack of $125.00.
If I win the first hand I get involved in, I then make 5 even stacks for the purpose of tracking the high point of my win and go from there.
When I'm up $500, I have an idea of how much I'm up, but the only thing I know for certain: How much I'm stuck from my high.
I cannot imagine trying to play poker knowing I have to earn this month's mortgage, this month.
From what I have read in various books, it seems the proper bankroll is a minimum of 300 BBs and 6 months living expenses.
You need to go back to work.

The other thing: I can't imagine playing poker 10 hrs a day, five days a week. What a grind.
That would be $1500 pr week based on 1.5 BBs an hr, but it would be such a grind that I'd eventually crack.

Monday: Golf during the day. Evening with the wife.
Tuesday: Golf during the day. 10/20 in the evening for 6 hrs.
Wednesday: Golf during the day. Evening with the wife.
Thursday: Golf during the day. 10/20 in the evening for 6 hrs.
Friday: Poker noon till no later than midnight.
Saturday: Start out with the wife. Poker 4pm to 10pm or so.
Sunday: With the wife.

What a great life.....even when I don't win for 3-4 weeks straight.

Re: 60 days of losing
 

Im not great player like Phil Ivey but i do play a decent game. I just couldnt buy a hand during this stretch.

[ QUOTE ]
As emerson points out, it's unrealistic to believe the original poster is a winning player at this level. A break-even player may have a 50/50 chance of being behind after 60 days, but it's a quintillion-to-1 shot that he has 60 straight losing days due to "bad luck" (i.e. variance).

Even a very bad player is extremely unlikely to see 60 straight losing days. For example, a really horrible 20/40 player who loses 5BB/hr and has an hourly standard deviation of 15BB/hr will be approx 32500:1 to have 60 straight losing 10hr sessions.

It's much more likely that the poster is going out of his way to lose or that the post is a fraud.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 60 days of losing
 

playing live different than online, more passive so narrow value raises aren't valuable any more.

do that for 60 days and you'll lose for 60 days (well, expect to anyways)

ditto narrow three-bets PF

finally playing 10-13 hrs / day is hard, do that for 60 days and you'll likely lose, not sure about that one though.

Re: 60 days of losing
 

[ QUOTE ]

Monday: Golf during the day. Evening with the wife.
Tuesday: Golf during the day. 10/20 in the evening for 6 hrs.
Wednesday: Golf during the day. Evening with the wife.
Thursday: Golf during the day. 10/20 in the evening for 6 hrs.
Friday: Poker noon till no later than midnight.
Saturday: Start out with the wife. Poker 4pm to 10pm or so.
Sunday: With the wife.

What a great life.....even when I don't win for 3-4 weeks straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds great except for all that wife time [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 60 days of losing
 

I also considered the post a fraud. If it's not my apology to OP, but I would think you could play every hand dealt to you every day, say, at least to the turn, and then try to make your best decision from there, and not lose sixty days in a row, even if you were quite a poor player.

Re: 60 days of losing
 

[ QUOTE ]
Im not great player like Phil Ivey but i do play a decent game. I just couldnt buy a hand during this stretch.

[ QUOTE ]
As emerson points out, it's unrealistic to believe the original poster is a winning player at this level. A break-even player may have a 50/50 chance of being behind after 60 days, but it's a quintillion-to-1 shot that he has 60 straight losing days due to "bad luck" (i.e. variance).

Even a very bad player is extremely unlikely to see 60 straight losing days. For example, a really horrible 20/40 player who loses 5BB/hr and has an hourly standard deviation of 15BB/hr will be approx 32500:1 to have 60 straight losing 10hr sessions.

It's much more likely that the poster is going out of his way to lose or that the post is a fraud.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

When Roy Cooke first started playing Hold Em, he would read Sklansky's Hold Em for Advanced Players between every session.
It was the only decent book on Hold Em in print at the time.
What do you do between sessions to improve your play?

Re: 60 days of losing
 

I understand why some people dont post in this forum. If some of you dont like the post you'll call it a fraud. I didnt come in here saying i won huge money and not sure why people here say im lying

[ QUOTE ]
I also considered the post a fraud.

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Re: 60 days of losing
 

[ QUOTE ]
I understand why some people dont post in this forum. If some of you dont like the post you'll call it a fraud. I didnt come in here saying i won huge money and not sure why people here say im lying

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I also considered the post a fraud.

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[/ QUOTE ]
The reason people are saying that is that it is not possible for a winning player to lose every day for 60 days playing 13 hours a day in a 20/40 live game (if the game is fair).

Re: 60 days of losing
 

I also said, "if it's not, my apology to OP."

You posted that you lost 60 days in a row, you're a good player, and asked if this happens to everyone. I don't know any good player who has lost sixty days in a row ever. So that's what made me think the post might not have been made in seriousness.