Flop situation
 

This is a somewhat tight-passive table for 6-max. UTG is very loose (70+ VPIP) and very passive, and Button is slightly loose and passive (30/7). SB has LAG stats preflop (42/27), but I haven't gotten much of a postflop read on him yet. He hasn't gone to showdown too often, but after only 30 hands, there's not too much information that can be drawn from that.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero...

Re: Flop situation
 

With 2 overs a backdoor flush draw and gutshot straight and 2 passive players left to act I would see the turn. The 8 is a dirty overcard imo. It puts 4 to a straight on the board. 5:1 on this board. FWIW I'm fairly tight postflop and don't go far enough with hands. I'm curious if others think this would be a good spot to see the turn for 1 bet.

Re: Flop situation
 

relative position is the real killer for me in this hand. But if you don't expect to be raised then I may make the peel here.

Re: Flop situation
 

In such a amall pot with players still to act behind me I think I fold this. If the pot had been raised pre-flop, I would raise.

Re: Flop situation
 

I went ahead with a peel. I figure that I've got 4 gutshot outs, about 1 backdoor flush out, and probably a solid 4 overcard outs. Even though my position is somewhat bad with two players behind me, it's not too bad because I don't expect to get raised often by those players. 5:1 with potential loose-passive callers behind me and 9ish outs and it's worth taking a peek at the turn.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls, Button folds.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero...

Re: Flop situation
 

yuck prolly not the best turn, the only thing I can think of is maybe b/f.

Re: Flop situation
 

Ugh! One of the reasons that I would have folded the flop. Is it +EV to bet here when the pot is only 3.5 BBs? Before betting you have to know what to do if UTG raises or SB check raises. I guess I bet and get ready to fold to any aggression on the basis that the pot size does not justify calling a raise. If UTG raises, I doubt if he will be bluffing given your read. Whether SB could bluff check raise is an unknown at present, but probably not in a pot this small.

Re: Flop situation
 

raise the flop.

as played bet the turn.

Re: Flop situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought about that, but I didn't think there was enough in the pot to make it an expensive play. I'm happy to peel and fold the turn UI.

Re: Flop situation
 

I was gonna say "raise flop" as well... [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

As played, I b/f. A 7 doesn't help us anymore, so we're probably drawing to 2-3 outs if behind. Though I have this feeling SB is going to c/r us more often than not...

Re: Flop situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
I went ahead with a peel. I figure that I've got 4 gutshot outs, about 1 backdoor flush out, and probably a solid 4 overcard outs. Even though my position is somewhat bad with two players behind me, it's not too bad because I don't expect to get raised often by those players. 5:1 with potential loose-passive callers behind me and 9ish outs and it's worth taking a peek at the turn.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls, Button folds.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero should bet, you are likely best. Re-evaluate based on the raiser if there is one. As for the river, I'd probably just check it with so many passive players in the hand.

Re: Flop situation
 

I would bet/fold the turn.

Your read on your opponents is that they are generally passive, so presumably you would only be raised by someone with a 7.

It wasnt the turn card that you called the flop for, but you might have the best hand. If so, you dont want to give a free card to overcards, and I think that the pot is probably offering enough to justify a bet.

Re: Flop situation
 

Raising the flop normally isn't buying you a free river, and against a LAG SB you may not get it anyway. If the pot were large, the raise is easy, but I don't think it is here.

I think you may have overvalued your two overs on the flop -- that 8 is tainted, and both are somewhat vulnerable to redraws. You may be good to call here if you are certain it's not getting raised, but I tend to fold when the pot is small and the decision is close.

On the turn, I think you're likely to peel off a free one if you check.

Re: Flop situation
 

raising flop buys us fold equity.

Re: Flop situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
raising flop buys us fold equity.

[/ QUOTE ]
How much equity does it buy against two loose players who have yet to act? We're not fighting over a big pot; we're trying to get a cheap card.

Re: Flop situation
 

Fold equity against 3 people in a tiny pot? Not worth it. I'd just fold the flop, honestly

Re: Flop situation
 

triple barrel fold equity ftw!

Re: Flop situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
triple barrel fold equity ftw!

[/ QUOTE ]

I've tried this. It never seems to work. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Flop situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raising the flop normally isn't buying you a free river, and against a LAG SB you may not get it anyway. If the pot were large, the raise is easy, but I don't think it is here.

I think you may have overvalued your two overs on the flop -- that 8 is tainted, and both are somewhat vulnerable to redraws. You may be good to call here if you are certain it's not getting raised, but I tend to fold when the pot is small and the decision is close.

On the turn, I think you're likely to peel off a free one if you check.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with your comments about the pre-flop play but, given that we chose to stay in the hand, should we not be betting the turn here? Checking allows a free card to possible overcards for our opponents and also gives the player behind us the chance to bet the turn which could mean anything from a straight to a total bluff. A bet by him gives us a difficult decision which might be avoided if we bet now and he folds. Does top pair not have sufficient pot equity here to put a BB into the pot?

Re: Flop situation
 

For some reason I thought we were still drawing to a straight. I guess you do have to protect and bet out, probably folding to a raise depending on the odds back to us.

Re: Flop situation
 

*Grunch* (always grunching, guys [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )

I bet this turn. Even easily. UTG has nothing. SB has nothing. Why wouldnt we bet? (Since this is gonna be a play-along I guess SB will cr.)
But so far: bet!

Re: Flop situation
 

Unter,

If you're responding to the turn action, you're by definition not grunching.

Re: Flop situation
 

Nk, Thx, Wookie.
But: Actually, if you believe me or not: I was just reading the first post, then realized it is gonna be a play-a-long, then read aarons next post and then grunched... would you believe me?

Re: Flop situation
 

Unterfish,

After a mint
julip and a
beer
and laughing it up while getting
caught up on the
Office,
I honestly don't
give a flying [censored]
whether you grunch or not.

Re: Flop situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
relative position is the real killer for me in this hand. But if you don't expect to be raised then I may make the peel here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't read the rest of the responses but my initial thinking was in the neighborhood of 8 outs, 4 for the gutshot, 1.5 for the bdfd, 1.5 for the T hi bdsd and 1 for the overcards. Thats about 5:1 for the draws. We're being offered 5:1 immediate pot odds and feeling pretty good about getting 7:1. If button does raise sb and utg will probably come along so we end up at 10:2 or 5:1 and still getting odds to draw.

In real life I'd fold on the flop cause i can't think that far ahead.

Re: Flop situation
 

This thing keeps getting bumped, so I might as well conclude it.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls, Button folds.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, SB calls.

River: (6.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds, SB calls.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

MHIG.

Re: Flop situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
Unterfish,

After a mint
julip and a
beer
and laughing it up while getting
caught up on the
Office,
I honestly don't
give a flying [censored]
whether you grunch or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm too bad this is way too long to be then next NC title. Also, too bad the first letter of each line did not spell out some great words of wisdom for uber-fish.

Re: Flop situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
Unterfish,

After a mint
julip and a
beer
and laughing it up while getting
caught up on the
Office,
I honestly don't
give a flying [censored]
whether you grunch or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is that? [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Flop situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Unterfish,

After a mint
julip and a
beer
and laughing it up while getting
caught up on the
Office,
I honestly don't
give a flying [censored]
whether you grunch or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is that? [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

why would he?


















Damn it.. stop sucking me into your trolltardness!

Re: Flop situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
This thing keeps getting bumped, so I might as well conclude it.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls, Button folds.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, SB calls.

River: (6.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds, SB calls.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

MHIG.

[/ QUOTE ]
nh