The Dumbing Down of America
 

What products out there make people use less brain power?

Examples:

Calculator instead of Pen and Paper
GPS Navigation instead of a Map
Spell Checker instead of a Dictionary

What are some others?

Big Steve [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

calculator instead of pen and paper?????????
granted if your doing multi tables on one instead of your head you might functionally retarded but a graphing calculator has been one of the greatest upgrades in higher math education in a long time....

you want dumbing down of america, go with google, spell check, mtv, and social networking.

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

I assume Steve meant calculator for things like basic addition, subtraction, multiplication, division.........

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

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I assume Steve meant calculator for things like basic addition, subtraction, multiplication, division.........

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yeah basic [censored] like 6*7=42 etc. Not the 4th prime of [censored] for calculus.

Big Steve [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

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you want dumbing down of america, go with google

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google makes it incredibly easy to find information. instead of having to go to the library and search through books, it allows information instantly. i am definitely way smarter because of google and I imagine that most people are as well. i know lots of people who aren't the brightest bulbs in the drawer but are still use google to look up lots of things they dont understand. in fact, google might be even more useful to those people. and it's not like someone who is too lazy to google would have gone to the library in the past to look it up.

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spell check

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spell check allows people to see the correct spelling of words. whether or not people actually learn after getting their words corrected is up for debate, but i'm sure some sink in after seeing them corrected and it allows people to produce works without misspelled words, something that will only increase people's ability to spell.

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social networking.

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how in the world does social networking make people dumber. if anything it exposes people to people with differing viewpoints who they might not meet if they were just hanging out with a small group of friends. it also allows people to keep in touch with those they might have lost touch with.

i think your examples are awful.



edit: I just saw the post actually asked "what makes people use less brain power" how is using less brain power related to the dumbing down of america? if anything, allowing people to learn with less effort is a good thing and will encourage people to expand their horizons and learn new information [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

I'd bet many people can work things out on calculators that they have no hope of working out without one, at least in any reasonable amount of time. In that case a calculator is not merely a shortcut.

Big Steve, I'm thinking of this thread in terms of Paradise Lost, in a way.

In that vein, I'll contribute: working on your car. Used to be common and a huge money saver and great way to increase practical knowledge, even leading to career for some. Now that so many cars have computers and have their engine compartments built so tight that it's very difficult to change your own oil, it makes more sense to just know nothing and let the pro's do it.

I'd also posit pop psychology making people think they can't discipline their own kids and keep them from running around like wild animals, because it might cause the boogeyman to leap out of the closet and warp their kids' minds or something. We rely on experts and pseudo-experts way too much for even elementary things, and regarding kids, can easily feel like well-studied experts without having a clue or any control whatsoever on what's happening in our own families. We decide to feel good about trying, not about results.

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you want dumbing down of america, go with google

[/ QUOTE ]

google makes it incredibly easy to find information. instead of having to go to the library and search through books, it allows information instantly. i am definitely way smarter because of google and I imagine that most people are as well. i know lots of people who aren't the brightest bulbs in the drawer but are still use google to look up lots of things they dont understand. in fact, google might be even more useful to those people. and it's not like someone who is too lazy to google would have gone to the library in the past to look it up.

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spell check

[/ QUOTE ]
spell check allows people to see the correct spelling of words. whether or not people actually learn after getting their words corrected is up for debate, but i'm sure some sink in after seeing them corrected and it allows people to produce works without misspelled words, something that will only increase people's ability to spell.

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social networking.

[/ QUOTE ]
how in the world does social networking make people dumber. if anything it exposes people to people with differing viewpoints who they might not meet if they were just hanging out with a small group of friends. it also allows people to keep in touch with those they might have lost touch with.

i think your examples are awful.



edit: I just saw the post actually asked "what makes people use less brain power" how is using less brain power related to the dumbing down of america? if anything, allowing people to learn with less effort is a good thing and will encourage people to expand their horizons and learn new information [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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Agreed. I think that dictionary.com and Google are probably the two most important tools I have to get smarter, at least in the sense that the OP means. FWIW, I don't really think being able to do 6*7 off the top of my head relates to any meaningful intelligence, nor does spelling words correctly, but assuming thats what he's talking about, google FTW.

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

well along the lines of google, you can now search online instead of using a card catalog, and in college, periodical search engines are wonderful tools for report writing.

But we still, have people that have graduated from high school that don't know how to do simple math because the calculator does it for them, and can't read a map because they have Tom Tom.



But I have to agree with you. People are way to good parents with thier kids. And the ones that act like asses get labeled ADHD and given a handful of drugs. NEWSFLASH if your kid can sit and play Xbox 360 for hours at a time, they do not have an attention problem.

Big Steve [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

Under the definition of OP Wikipedia is probably one of the worst things to happen in terms of requiring less brain power, but would you really argue that Wikipedia has dumbed down America? I have at least cursory knowledge on hundreds of topics that I might have never even heard of before Wikipedia. Anyone who doesn't go research things in scientific journals today wouldn't have 50 years ago, and some people who do now do it because they were exposed to topics through Google et al. Increasing the speed at which information is disseminated is never a bad thing.

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

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well along the lines of google, you can now search online instead of using a card catalog, and in college, periodical search engines are wonderful tools for report writing.

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can't read a map because they have Tom Tom.

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Most people today can't write calligraphy because we have the printing press. Most people today don't know how to empty a septic system because we sewage systems. Most people today don't know how to care for a horse because we have cars.

What's the problem?

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

[ QUOTE ]
Under the definition of OP Wikipedia is probably one of the worst things to happen in terms of requiring less brain power, but would you really argue that Wikipedia has dumbed down America? I have at least cursory knowledge on hundreds of topics that I might have never even heard of before Wikipedia. Anyone who doesn't go research things in scientific journals today wouldn't have 50 years ago, and some people who do now do it because they were exposed to topics through Google et al. Increasing the speed at which information is disseminated is never a bad thing.

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Agreed, but I think OP probably meant more like Blarg said - the decline of general ability to service ones own car (due to 50,000 cheapo chain mechanics) etc.

I will say frozen food, fast food and take-out places have seriously deteriorated the ability of the average person to cook. The more easy, lazy food options there are the less people are inclined to cook. I'd be willing to bet that at least 35% of the adult population in the US couldn't turn a grocery store steak, some grocery store potatoes and fresh green beans into food.

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

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Agreed, but I think OP probably meant more like Blarg said - the decline of general ability to service ones own car

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I guess we could take all the ECU stuff out and go back to 12mpg and no air conditioning like we had in the 70's...

As things advance then knowledge required gets more specialized. Society is a symbiotic relationship. Think in terms of comparative advantage in economics. Sure, I could learn to fix all the problems in my car, but I'm better at other things so I spend my time learning them. Some guy is better at fixing cars than me so that's what he spends his time learning. I'll write the software and set up his Point of Sale system and he can fix my car and we both are further ahead than if we each tried to do everything ourselves.

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

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As things advance then knowledge required gets more specialized. Society is a symbiotic relationship. Think in terms of comparative advantage in economics. Sure, I could learn to fix all the problems in my car, but I'm better at other things so I spend my time learning them. Some guy is better at fixing cars than me so that's what he spends his time learning. I'll write the software and set up his Point of Sale system and he can fix my car and we both are further ahead than if we each tried to do everything ourselves.

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Again I agree here. There are things that make people lazier and possibly dumber, but most social/technological progress does not fall into this category. Obviously if there is no need for me to know how to fix my car myself (and there isn't) then it would be a waste of time and money for me to learn how to do it. However I am sacrificing a certain amount of "basic knowledge" by neglecting to learn how to do X, Y and Z.

I mean barely anyone could honestly make butter or bread nowadays. That's not dumbing down, it's just not a useful skill for every individual to have anymore. But not being able to do rudimentary math or heat up a piece of meat to feed yourself seem more significant, although I suppose it's all really shades of gray.

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

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NEWSFLASH if your kid can sit and play Xbox 360 for hours at a time, they do not have an attention problem.

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How well do you understand ADHD and the criteria by which it is diagnosed?

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

mason owned this thread so hard.

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

[ QUOTE ]
What products out there make people use less brain power?

Examples:

Calculator instead of Pen and Paper
GPS Navigation instead of a Map
Spell Checker instead of a Dictionary

What are some others?

Big Steve [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

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Sort of surprised nobody has said it yet, but...

The hideous Celebrity Culture generated by the U.S. over the past fifty years is almost certainly one of the major contributing factors to both the stupidity and the ugliness of America.

The need to emulate the people seen in films and on television is such a peculiar perversion that we're still trying to adjust to the affect.

If your goal in life is to be "just like" Tupac Shakur, Paris Hilton, James Dean, Daniel Negreanu, Ann Coulter, or Britney Spears, then you fail to aspire to be something that is a product of your own nature.

I imagine this would make us all definitively dumber.

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

Can we clarify what we're comparing the current "stupid America" to?

Are we comparing it to the early 1800's, when most girls didn't attend school and most boys stopped extremely early so they could help on the farm?

Are we comparing it to the industrial revolution, when kids were working in dangerous factories instead of being in school?

Are we comparing it to the 1970's, when the high school dropout rate was almost 4% higher than it is today?

The only thing that you can say America is "dumber than" is some countries today. But I'm pretty sure South Korea uses GPS Systems and Germany has Google and India* has celebrities (Bollywood).


*Not sure if you can even say that India is smarter as a whole because of the large rural population but I would imagine that's the perception in America

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

The thing that I've noticed, mostly because I've been trying to hire a few entry-level people, is the lack of writing skills caused by instant messaging and text messaging. College graduates can't write in full sentences any more, let alone use correct grammar.

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

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Calculator instead of Pen and Paper
GPS Navigation instead of a Map
Spell Checker instead of a Dictionary


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all of these things are really awesome

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

OP, please retitle this thread "Innovations".

The people that brought up cars, cooking, and particularly AIM are definite good examples of what I think the OP was going for.

Another thing that has definitely dumbed down America is things like cliff notes and sparknotes. Classic books going unread because its easier to just get the fast-food version.

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

[ QUOTE ]
What products out there make people use less brain power?

Examples:

Calculator instead of Pen and Paper
GPS Navigation instead of a Map
Spell Checker instead of a Dictionary

What are some others?

Big Steve [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

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All of these things make my life a TON easier. I am less likely to make a mistake and they save me a ton of time. For the real answer, I would say the promotion of "self esteem awareness" and lack of exposure to failure kids get in schools.

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

Usually the people who say that technology is dumbing down Americans say so because they do not know how to get full use out of the technology. Whats dumb imo, is going to the library, looking up the book I want, getting the book off the shelf, etc, rather than just googling and saving about an hour's worth of time.


rushmore is spot on in regards to what is making people dumb.

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

OOT.

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

nothing wrong with this. dumb people are typically happier and more caring about others.

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

It's not just that we're not exposing kids to failure, we're actively training them to think that working hard is bad and it means you're stupid.

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

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Under the definition of OP Wikipedia is probably one of the worst things to happen in terms of requiring less brain power, but would you really argue that Wikipedia has dumbed down America? I have at least cursory knowledge on hundreds of topics that I might have never even heard of before Wikipedia. Anyone who doesn't go research things in scientific journals today wouldn't have 50 years ago, and some people who do now do it because they were exposed to topics through Google et al. Increasing the speed at which information is disseminated is never a bad thing.

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Agreed, but I think OP probably meant more like Blarg said - the decline of general ability to service ones own car (due to 50,000 cheapo chain mechanics) etc.

I will say frozen food, fast food and take-out places have seriously deteriorated the ability of the average person to cook. The more easy, lazy food options there are the less people are inclined to cook. I'd be willing to bet that at least 35% of the adult population in the US couldn't turn a grocery store steak, some grocery store potatoes and fresh green beans into food.

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Ya man, this is a [censored] huge one here. How many girls do you know in the 18 to 25 age range that know how to cook? I mean WTF, what am I going to do when I want to settle down? I was hanging out with this broad over the weekend and she asked if it was ok to put tin foil IN THE OVEN.

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

I know I feel dumber after watching any cable news networks for more than a couple minutes.

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

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It's not just that we're not exposing kids to failure, we're actively training them to think that working hard is bad and it means you're stupid.

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Working hard when not neccesary IS stupid. Teaching kids to work smart is highly underrated. You see people work their butts off on the dumbest things. I just take the most important things, work my ass off on that, and the rest I do a pretty good job on, and it comes out a lot better than someone who spent a lot more time on the same thing.

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

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Can we clarify what we're comparing the current "stupid America" to?

Are we comparing it to the early 1800's, when most girls didn't attend school and most boys stopped extremely early so they could help on the farm?

Are we comparing it to the industrial revolution, when kids were working in dangerous factories instead of being in school?

Are we comparing it to the 1970's, when the high school dropout rate was almost 4% higher than it is today?

The only thing that you can say America is "dumber than" is some countries today. But I'm pretty sure South Korea uses GPS Systems and Germany has Google and India* has celebrities (Bollywood).


*Not sure if you can even say that India is smarter as a whole because of the large rural population but I would imagine that's the perception in America

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how about this, then - while the average intelligence is theoretically rising (and it should be), the two extremes of the intelligence spectrum are getting dumber?

i definitely would know a hell of a lot more had the internet been invented, and i'm 100% serious. I might not know how many games David Vyborny played in his career, but I'd have a much greater knowledge of history and literature than I do now.

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

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It's not just that we're not exposing kids to failure, we're actively training them to think that working hard is bad and it means you're stupid.

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This is very true; I know so many kids who think that there is a certain honor in doing no work and getting OK grades.

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

mason,

knowledge isn't brainpower, it's memory. when people had to work out problems without a guide it probably did make them smarter even if they came up with fewer answers. regardless I think brainpower is way less important having good work habits and learning to use resources when they're available.

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

The public schools have caused the dumbing down of America more than any other single thing. I once read an article that had a high school test of some kind from the 1920's side by side w/ one from the 90's. I tried googling but couldn't find it. The difference was shocking. The grade schools students in China or Korea can run rings around America's when it comes to math and science and it's not even close.

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

[ QUOTE ]
The public schools have caused the dumbing down of America more than any other single thing. I once read an article that had a high school test of some kind from the 1920's side by side w/ one from the 90's. I tried googling but couldn't find it. The difference was shocking. The grade schools students in China or Korea can run rings around America's when it comes to math and science and it's not even close.

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The teachers union has caused the dumbing down of America.

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The public schools have caused the dumbing down of America more than any other single thing. I once read an article that had a high school test of some kind from the 1920's side by side w/ one from the 90's. I tried googling but couldn't find it. The difference was shocking. The grade schools students in China or Korea can run rings around America's when it comes to math and science and it's not even close.

[/ QUOTE ]


The teachers union has caused the dumbing down of America.

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And who lets them get away with it?

IIRC, Thomas Sowell writes extensively on this topic. He points out that the teachers are now coming from the lower 1/2 or 1/3 (I can't remember) of college graduates and blames some of that on the pay scales. Parents are more to blame than anyone else, imo. The 'geniuses' that DO get thru our public schools are more than likely to be of Asian extraction. That is the parents' doing more than the kids'.

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The public schools have caused the dumbing down of America more than any other single thing. I once read an article that had a high school test of some kind from the 1920's side by side w/ one from the 90's. I tried googling but couldn't find it. The difference was shocking. The grade schools students in China or Korea can run rings around America's when it comes to math and science and it's not even close.

[/ QUOTE ]


The teachers union has caused the dumbing down of America.

[/ QUOTE ]

And who lets them get away with it?

IIRC, Thomas Sowell writes extensively on this topic. He points out that the teachers are now coming from the lower 1/2 or 1/3 (I can't remember) of college graduates and blames some of that on the pay scales. Parents are more to blame than anyone else, imo. The 'geniuses' that DO get thru our public schools are more than likely to be of Asian extraction. That is the parents' doing more than the kids'.

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Who's to be blamed? The democrats...


seriously, I have no idea, nor do I care, I went to private school, my kids, if I ever have them will go to private school, so Im not all that concerned.

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The public schools have caused the dumbing down of America more than any other single thing. I once read an article that had a high school test of some kind from the 1920's side by side w/ one from the 90's. I tried googling but couldn't find it. The difference was shocking. The grade schools students in China or Korea can run rings around America's when it comes to math and science and it's not even close.

[/ QUOTE ]


The teachers union has caused the dumbing down of America.

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Explain?

I'm not at all convinced that America is dumbed down. There's more media, so we see more dumb [censored], but I would guess that on average people are better informed.

If you assume that something has gone wrong, and want to point a finger, I'd blame a system that has made teaching a fare less desireable position and simply won't attract our best and brightest.

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

Agree with almost everything you wrote - but I'd be a bit careful about the high school dropout thing.

Back then, if you were a pain in the ass, disruptive, or just didn't feel like doing the work, you'd be held back a year, or you might be asked to leave - and if you decided to leave, noone came looking for you.

Those days are long gone. If you have a pulse, you're gonna pass. A high school diploma at one time meant the person who earned it could read, write, and do some math. Not any more......

In passing, if I see a patient over 8 in the ED who is bright, articulate, and respectful, I ask if they are home schooled. Most of the time, they are.....

MM MD

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

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The thing that I've noticed, mostly because I've been trying to hire a few entry-level people, is the lack of writing skills caused by instant messaging and text messaging. College graduates can't write in full sentences any more, let alone use correct grammar.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is the correct answer. There's been a real deemphasis on grammar and composition in high school over the last few decades. I'm not sure what to attribute it to, but the internet, computers, and related technology seem like good guesses.

The fact is that a reasonably intelligent and somewhat educated person of our parents' generation is capable of organizing their thoughts in a logical paragraph. Kids at the (top tier) university I attend, by and large, cannot. I've read quite a few of their papers, and what passes for a B these days is pile of logical fallacies, garbled syntax, and grammatical errors.

Mason has made a lot of good points in this thread, and one might extend his arguments to cover this phenomenon--maybe compositional skills just aren't as important as they used to be. I'd argue, however, that marshalling your thoughts into a coherent group of sentences is closely related to logical ability, and the decline of our ability to do so as a society is kind of troubling.

Re: The Dumbing Down of America
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The public schools have caused the dumbing down of America more than any other single thing. I once read an article that had a high school test of some kind from the 1920's side by side w/ one from the 90's. I tried googling but couldn't find it. The difference was shocking. The grade schools students in China or Korea can run rings around America's when it comes to math and science and it's not even close.

[/ QUOTE ]


The teachers union has caused the dumbing down of America.

[/ QUOTE ]

Explain?

I'm not at all convinced that America is dumbed down. There's more media, so we see more dumb [censored], but I would guess that on average people are better informed.

If you assume that something has gone wrong, and want to point a finger, I'd blame a system that has made teaching a fare less desireable position and simply won't attract our best and brightest.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://dondodge.typepad.com/the_next...jobs_says.html

good article on what Im getting at.

The union officials and public school administrators are ridiculously corrupt. Public school admins get paid 6 figure salaries for basically doing nothing. Its a terrible system.


Unions are a bad thing, yes, at one point they were needed, but in the year 2007 they are doing nothing but hurting our economy, and making the select few rich.