Study sees racial bias in calling fouls
 

Did anyone see this story in the NYT today?

Cliff notes: a study claims that there is racial bias in calling fouls in the NBA.

My initial reaction was that it would be extremely difficult to create any study that could account for all the variables. But if you read the entire article, it appears that the study made a strong effort to do just that.

The NBA had its own study done, and came to a different conclusion. But the NYT engaged three "neutral" experts who concluded that the study finding bias was more persuasive.

Re: Study sees racial bias in calling fouls
 

Now I hope the Mavs get an all-white ref crew in Games 6 and 7.

Re: Study sees racial bias in calling fouls
 

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Did anyone see this story in the NYT today?

Cliff notes: a study claims that there is racial bias in calling fouls in the NBA.

My initial reaction was that it would be extremely difficult to create any study that could account for all the variables. But if you read the entire article, it appears that the study made a strong effort to do just that.

The NBA had its own study done, and came to a different conclusion. But the NYT engaged three "neutral" experts who concluded that the study finding bias was more persuasive.

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LOL

Re: Study sees racial bias in calling fouls
 

Link to .pdf of the paper on racial bias

Re: Study sees racial bias in calling fouls
 

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Did anyone see this story in the NYT today?

Cliff notes: a study claims that there is racial bias in calling fouls in the NBA.

My initial reaction was that it would be extremely difficult to create any study that could account for all the variables. But if you read the entire article, it appears that the study made a strong effort to do just that.

The NBA had its own study done, and came to a different conclusion. But the NYT engaged three "neutral" experts who concluded that the study finding bias was more persuasive.

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i've only read the article and not the actual paper, but here are my first thoughts:

-that actual increase in fouls called is really, really small. If you replace 3 black refs with 3 white ones (the most extreme example), the black players will have 0.12-0.20 more fouls called on them per 48 minutes (the opposite also applies, with black refs calling fouls on white players, but to a lesser extent). In the scope of a game or even season that's insignificant.

-the data in the paper showed each additional black starter a team had meant about 2 fewer victories for that team each season. That IS a significant number.

So what's the difference?

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“Player-performance appears to deteriorate at every margin when officiated by a larger fraction of opposite-race referees,” they write. The paper later notes no change in free-throw percentage. “We emphasize this result because this is the one on-court behavior that we expect to be unaffected by referee behavior.”

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basically this says black players PLAY worse (points, rebounds, assists, turnovers, etc) with white referees and vice versa. Because 68% of refs are white (at the time of study, 64% now) this results in overall worse perfomance by black players.

What does this mean? Why would players play worse with referees of a different race, if the number of fouls called against them only changes minimally? That's hard to say. I don't think it's bias with the refs, but rather with the players themselves.

Gonna read the paper tonight and maybe comment more.

Re: Study sees racial bias in calling fouls
 

At first I thought this study was BS but I see there is indeed something to it. It should never be any surprise to anyone who knows anything about race relations that white refs would be biased in favor of whites.
A technical foul study would be WAAAAY more interesting than this, I don't know why they didn't do that. I wouldn't be surprised if the correlation was 3-5 times stronger than for regular fouls.
The real question is, why are 85% of the players black while most of the refs, and most of the coaches and executives white? More importantly why are the blatantly racist policies of David Stern such as the dress code continually unchallenged?

Re: Study sees racial bias in calling fouls
 

Maybe there is a bias. I certainly wouldn't be overly surprised by it, but I don't see any way to prove it. The rate at which fouls are called in no way proves bias. Even if someone watched every second of every game to make some kind of judgement on every single foul, the study is still open to bias by the people performing the study who obviously went in hoping they could show racism.

Re: Study sees racial bias in calling fouls
 

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blatantly racist policies ... such as the dress code

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Ah yes that blatantly racist dress code.

Can you believe my employer has a similiar racist dress code? Monday I showed up wearing dirty overalls and a confederate flag cape, as a tribute to my Southern ancestors, and they sent me home!

They used some flimsy excuses about "looking professional" and "my image reflects on the companies image" but it was a load of crap. I saw right through those dirty racists.

Re: Study sees racial bias in calling fouls
 

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At first I thought this study was BS but I see there is indeed something to it. It should never be any surprise to anyone who knows anything about race relations that white refs would be biased in favor of whites.
A technical foul study would be WAAAAY more interesting than this, I don't know why they didn't do that. I wouldn't be surprised if the correlation was 3-5 times stronger than for regular fouls.
The real question is, why are 85% of the players black while most of the refs, and most of the coaches and executives white? More importantly why are the blatantly racist policies of David Stern such as the dress code continually unchallenged?

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Because African-Americans are physically different than whites in that they can generally jump higher and run faster which makes them better at basketball. However, they have no such advantage for coaching, refereeing or being an executive; therefore those numbers more closely mirror the general population which is predominantly white.

Why do people have to look for racism when it's not even there? And the dress code's racist? Give me a break. I think you're a racist if you're saying that it's somehow harder for a black person to put on a collared shirt for a post-game interview than it is for a white person.

Re: Study sees racial bias in calling fouls
 

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To investigate whether such bias has existed in sports, Mr. Wolfers and Mr. Price examined data from publicly available box scores. They accounted for factors like the players’ positions, playing time and All-Star status; each group’s time on the court (black players played 83 percent of minutes, while 68 percent of officials were white); calls at home games and on the road; and other relevant data.

But they said they continued to find the same phenomenon: that players who were similar in all ways except skin color drew foul calls at a rate difference of up to 4 ½ percent depending on the racial composition of an N.B.A. game’s three-person referee crew.

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All they did was look in the box scores, not a which ref called which foul, but whether the "crew" (already deemed either "white" or "black") called a foul?

The conclusion section of the paper on page 31 states "we test whether players of a given race receive fewer fouls when more of the referees present are of the same race"

I only skimmed the paper- how significant is the conclusion "up to 4%"?

Re: Study sees racial bias in calling fouls
 

Even if this "study" was performed in a way that made sense, why is it not possible that black players just commit fouls at a higher rate?

Re: Study sees racial bias in calling fouls
 

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Why is it not poissible that black players just commit fouls at a higher rate?

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Why would they?

Re: Study sees racial bias in calling fouls
 

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Why is it not poissible that black players just commit fouls at a higher rate?

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Why would they?

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I could think of any number of things to explain it starting with where many black athletes grew up and learned to play the game. It's just as plausible as racial bias by the refs.

Re: Study sees racial bias in calling fouls
 

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All they did was look in the box scores, not a which ref called which foul, but whether the "crew" (already deemed either "white" or "black") called a foul?

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Yes. Which ref called each foul isn't data anyone but the NBA keeps. It's why Stern is saying the NBA study is better, because they're working with better data. He also doesn't attempt to account for all the factors the other study does, and won't make his data available to the rest of us (allegedly because of the referee collective bargaining agreement).

Colt - you're really missing the point. The paper says white refs call more fouls on black players than black refs do, and vice versa for black refs.

Re: Study sees racial bias in calling fouls
 

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Even if this "study" was performed in a way that made sense, why is it not possible that black players just commit fouls at a higher rate?

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How is that relevant to the study?

Re: Study sees racial bias in calling fouls
 

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Colt - you're really missing the point. The paper says white refs call more fouls on black players than black refs do, and vice versa for black refs.

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I didn't miss the point at all. What the paper actually says is that they conducted a study that is meaningless. They didn't have good data and conducted a study in such a way that it doesn't tell you anything meaningful. They focus on white ref teams and then throw in that black ref teams also show a bias but to a lesser degree than white teams. It's very obvious they went in hoping to prove something that they can't prove.

As I said, I think it's entirely possible this racial bias exists. This study just doesn't prove it.

Re: Study sees racial bias in calling fouls
 

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blatantly racist policies ... such as the dress code

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Ah yes that blatantly racist dress code.

Can you believe my employer has a similiar racist dress code? Monday I showed up wearing dirty overalls and a confederate flag cape, as a tribute to my Southern ancestors, and they sent me home!

They used some flimsy excuses about "looking professional" and "my image reflects on the companies image" but it was a load of crap. I saw right through those dirty racists.

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If you where as good at what you do as an NBA player is at basketball, you could probably wear whatever you wanted. I think they have earned the right to wear jeans and a throwback if they want to.

Re: Study sees racial bias in calling fouls
 

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If you where as good at what you do as an NBA player is at basketball, you could probably wear whatever you wanted. I think they have earned the right to wear jeans and a throwback if they want to.

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That's fine, but that makes it a bad policy. It doesn't make the policy racist.

Re: Study sees racial bias in calling fouls
 

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If you where as good at what you do as an NBA player is at basketball, you could probably wear whatever you wanted. I think they have earned the right to wear jeans and a throwback if they want to.

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That's fine, but that makes it a bad policy. It doesn't make the policy racist.

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I think their motives could possibly be racist. Do you think a major reason they did this was a desire to get rid of a hip hop image?

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If you where as good at what you do as an NBA player is at basketball, you could probably wear whatever you wanted. I think they have earned the right to wear jeans and a throwback if they want to.

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That's fine, but that makes it a bad policy. It doesn't make the policy racist.

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I think their motives could possibly be racist. Do you think a major reason they did this was a desire to get rid of a hip hop image?

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Possibly but it still doesn't make it racist.

Re: Study sees racial bias in calling fouls
 

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If you where as good at what you do as an NBA player is at basketball, you could probably wear whatever you wanted. I think they have earned the right to wear jeans and a throwback if they want to.

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That's fine, but that makes it a bad policy. It doesn't make the policy racist.

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I think their motives could possibly be racist. Do you think a major reason they did this was a desire to get rid of a hip hop image?

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Possibly but it still doesn't make it racist.

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Not sure i get your last point. I think dressing is heavily based on culture. What looks "professional" to people can vary greatly. People often wear different cloths depending on there background. When the British where in India they made Indian business men they worked with wear British style clothing even though they were used to their own style. That would clearly be racist right?

Re: Study sees racial bias in calling fouls
 

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why are 85% of the players black while most of the refs, and most of the coaches and executives white?

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Because running and jumping aren't correlated to making business decisions or even judging foul calls.

Re: Study sees racial bias in calling fouls
 

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If you where as good at what you do as an NBA player is at basketball, you could probably wear whatever you wanted. I think they have earned the right to wear jeans and a throwback if they want to.

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That's fine, but that makes it a bad policy. It doesn't make the policy racist.

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I think their motives could possibly be racist. Do you think a major reason they did this was a desire to get rid of a hip hop image?

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Possibly but it still doesn't make it racist.

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http://www.mediaminds.org/images/new...eforeafter.jpg

Oh my! Now he's respectable!





Which of these casual street clothes images do you think was the primary motivation for the dress code?

http://img.slate.com/media/1/123125/..._IversonTN.jpg

http://www.nba.com/media/suns/06play...avel_nashs.jpg



Granted, now they both have to wear suits so technically, its not racist in structure because it applies to everyone. NBA people have even used words like "urban" when talking about the image they are trying to get away from. Clearly this is aimed more at blacks than whites. With hip-hop and basketball so intertwined, this makes little sense to me.

As for the person talking about your office job, how is that similar? It's not as if you wear one thing to work and then change clothes for a board meeting.

Basketball players cannot wear basketball shoes on the way to a basketball game. This is just dumb.

Re: Study sees racial bias in calling fouls
 

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Granted, now they both have to wear suits so technically, its not racist in structure because it applies to everyone. NBA people have even used words like "urban" when talking about the image they are trying to get away from. Clearly this is aimed more at blacks than whites. With hip-hop and basketball so intertwined, this makes little sense to me.

As for the person talking about your office job, how is that similar? It's not as if you wear one thing to work and then change clothes for a board meeting.

Basketball players cannot wear basketball shoes on the way to a basketball game. This is just dumb.

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Dumb does not equal racist. The fact that most of the players are black also does not make it racist. Do you think there wouldn't be a dress code if 75% of basketball players looked like this?



http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/3...tetrashkn5.jpg

Re: Study sees racial bias in calling fouls
 

Does anyone know which position most white guys play and which position gets called for the most fouls? Did the study consider this?

Re: Study sees racial bias in calling fouls
 

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Does anyone know which position most white guys play and which position gets called for the most fouls? Did the study consider this?

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It seems so. From Article:

"To investigate whether such bias has existed in sports, Mr. Wolfers and Mr. Price examined data from publicly available box scores. They accounted for factors like the players’ positions, playing time and All-Star status; each group’s time on the court (black players played 83 percent of minutes, while 68 percent of officials were white); calls at home games and on the road; and other relevant data."

Re: Study sees racial bias in calling fouls
 

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As for the person talking about your office job, how is that similar? It's not as if you wear one thing to work and then change clothes for a board meeting.


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Lots of professionals wear better clothes when they're in the public eye. E.g., a salesperson meeting a new client; a lawyer before a judge.

Re: Study sees racial bias in calling fouls
 

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Granted, now they both have to wear suits so technically, its not racist in structure because it applies to everyone. NBA people have even used words like "urban" when talking about the image they are trying to get away from. Clearly this is aimed more at blacks than whites. With hip-hop and basketball so intertwined, this makes little sense to me.

As for the person talking about your office job, how is that similar? It's not as if you wear one thing to work and then change clothes for a board meeting.

Basketball players cannot wear basketball shoes on the way to a basketball game. This is just dumb.

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Dumb does not equal racist. The fact that most of the players are black also does not make it racist. Do you think there wouldn't be a dress code if 75% of basketball players looked like this?



http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/3...tetrashkn5.jpg

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Yes. And I would say that it is probably racist. If you replace the word racist with culturally biased would you agree? I am using racist in a broader term than you are because I am not sure i really know what a race is.

Re: Study sees racial bias in calling fouls
 

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Yes. And I would say that it is probably racist. If you replace the word racist with culturally biased would you agree? I am using racist in a broader term than you are because I am not sure i really know what a race is.

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So requiring anyone to adhere to a dress code is racism. Ok. Glad we cleared that up.

Re: Study sees racial bias in calling fouls
 

The dress code is a hijack from the study however...

Clearly the dress code became an issue due to players wearing too much "urban" aka (ghetto street thug) type attire and the NBA wanted to get away from that.

But not because they "hate black people" but because they see it as bad for business.

Just like if the problem was mullets and overalls they would have done the same.

The NBA is a BUSINESS, they want to make money, they see the perception of the NBA as a bunch of street thug ballas as a problem and therefore they want to address it.

If they thought they would make more money embracing "street" culture they would.

Long story short, the only color that matters to the NBA is GREEN.

Re: Study sees racial bias in calling fouls
 

I don't know how this thread got so derailed.

Unlike Colt, I see no reason to assume that the academics who undertook this study were themselves biased (at least no more reason to assume that than believe the refs could be biased).

And I thought that the underlying issue the authors of the study make is interesting: i.e., whether reflexive, spur of the moment decisions (as calling fouls are characterized) may be unconsciously affected by one's attitudes about race. Indeed, it's worth pointing out that no one is claiming that the refs are consciously making any race-based decisions.

Re: Study sees racial bias in calling fouls
 

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The dress code is a hijack from the study however...

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Only because the study design was so pathetic it's not really worthy of discussion. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Study sees racial bias in calling fouls
 

All I know is that if it only takes [censored] studies like this to get into Penn grad school you can sign me up.

Re: Study sees racial bias in calling fouls
 

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Yes. And I would say that it is probably racist. If you replace the word racist with culturally biased would you agree? I am using racist in a broader term than you are because I am not sure i really know what a race is.

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So requiring anyone to adhere to a dress code is racism. Ok. Glad we cleared that up.

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Sometimes they can be racist. Like my British India example? I think that would be a 10 on a racist scale. The NBA one may be a 8 or a 2 but I think it belongs on the scale right?

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The dress code is a hijack from the study however...

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Only because the study design was so pathetic it's not really worthy of discussion. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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Do you know any flaw in their method from the PDF, I didn't read that. The article didn't tell me enough to draw that conclusion.

Re: Study sees racial bias in calling fouls
 

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Colt - you're really missing the point. The paper says white refs call more fouls on black players than black refs do, and vice versa for black refs.

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I didn't miss the point at all. What the paper actually says is that they conducted a study that is meaningless. They didn't have good data and conducted a study in such a way that it doesn't tell you anything meaningful. They focus on white ref teams and then throw in that black ref teams also show a bias but to a lesser degree than white teams. It's very obvious they went in hoping to prove something that they can't prove.

As I said, I think it's entirely possible this racial bias exists. This study just doesn't prove it.

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Take it easy Champ. Why don't you stop talking for a while.

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Yes. And I would say that it is probably racist. If you replace the word racist with culturally biased would you agree? I am using racist in a broader term than you are because I am not sure i really know what a race is.

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So requiring anyone to adhere to a dress code is racism. Ok. Glad we cleared that up.

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Sometimes they can be racist. Like my British India example? I think that would be a 10 on a racist scale. The NBA one may be a 8 or a 2 but I think it belongs on the scale right?

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How is your example racist?

You think if England came into India and everyone there was white but wearing what they were wearing they wouldn't make them wear suits?

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Yes. And I would say that it is probably racist. If you replace the word racist with culturally biased would you agree? I am using racist in a broader term than you are because I am not sure i really know what a race is.

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So requiring anyone to adhere to a dress code is racism. Ok. Glad we cleared that up.

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Sometimes they can be racist. Like my British India example? I think that would be a 10 on a racist scale. The NBA one may be a 8 or a 2 but I think it belongs on the scale right?

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How is your example racist?

You think if England came into India and everyone there was white but wearing what they were wearing they wouldn't make them wear suits?

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White isn't a race. Most people define race as a mix of genetic and environemntal factors.

Re: Study sees racial bias in calling fouls
 

No Max, that's an ethnicity.

race (plural rac·es)

noun
Definition:

1. group of humans: one of the groups into which the world's population can be divided on the basis of physical characteristics such as skin or hair color

2. fact of belonging to group: the fact of belonging to a group of humans who share the same physical features such as skin color
an attempt to end discrimination on grounds of race

eth·nic

adjective
Definition:

1. sharing cultural characteristics: sharing distinctive cultural traits as a group in society
ethnic minorities

2. of group sharing cultural characteristics: relating to a group or groups in society with distinctive cultural traits
ethnic origins

3. of particular origin or culture: relating to a person or to a large group of people who share a national, racial, linguistic, or religious heritage, whether or not they reside in their countries of origin
ethnic Albanians

4. culturally traditional: belonging to or associated with the traditional culture of a social group
ethnic clothing

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No Max, that's an ethnicity.

race (plural rac·es)

noun
Definition:

1. group of humans: one of the groups into which the world's population can be divided on the basis of physical characteristics such as skin or hair color

2. fact of belonging to group: the fact of belonging to a group of humans who share the same physical features such as skin color
an attempt to end discrimination on grounds of race

eth·nic

adjective
Definition:

1. sharing cultural characteristics: sharing distinctive cultural traits as a group in society
ethnic minorities

2. of group sharing cultural characteristics: relating to a group or groups in society with distinctive cultural traits
ethnic origins

3. of particular origin or culture: relating to a person or to a large group of people who share a national, racial, linguistic, or religious heritage, whether or not they reside in their countries of origin
ethnic Albanians

4. culturally traditional: belonging to or associated with the traditional culture of a social group
ethnic clothing

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Just read the wiki on race. It is not that simple. I might still agree with you though. I should say culturally biased or something. It is very hard to say something is racist when scientists can't agree what a race is or if it is even a meaningful concept to group humans.