blind steal/blind defense.
 

THis is why I hate blind steals/defense.

How are you supposed to kow when you are ahead/behind? When you should fold? Seems like a huge risk of large swings for most likely a small pot. To be profitable you have to be right more than 50% of the time. Tell me what I am missing.

PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif.
[color=#666666]7 folds</font>, [color=#CC3333]Button raises</font>, [color=#666666]1 fold</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif [color=#0000FF](2 players)</font>
[color=#CC3333]Hero bets</font>, [color=#CC3333]Button raises</font>, [color=#CC3333]Hero 3-bets</font>, Button calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif [color=#0000FF](2 players)</font>
[color=#CC3333]Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

River: (7.25 BB) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif [color=#0000FF](2 players)</font>
[color=#CC3333]Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

Button has k5o

Final Pot: 9.25 BB

Re: blind steal/blind defense.
 

Okay, I'm fairly new so take what I say with a grain of salt.

First off, you aren't going to be defending/stealing in mirco limit. What is the saying... "You can't bluff the unbluffable."

Secondly, you totally whiff on the flop. You can't bet into him here (let alone 3-bet) since you are behind PF. I think this flop is a straight forward check/fold.

Re: blind steal/blind defense.
 

Don't bother defending with A4o, you're dominated by so many hands and have no position. Either 3 bet if you think he's stealing or dump it, otherwise you're just fishing.

Re: blind steal/blind defense.
 

He stole my blinds 4 times in a row.

Re: blind steal/blind defense.
 

3bet preflop

Re: blind steal/blind defense.
 

Here's the reasoning, if you 3bet him preflop he's likely to fold with that hand, if he doesn't, you can cbet the flop and give it up he calls again. You're more likely to push him off this way both pre and postflop.

If he comes over you preflop, he probably has you dominated or is a complete donk, in which case you'll catch him later.

Re: blind steal/blind defense.
 

There are two standard lines when defending your blinds;
1. Call pre-flop, c/r any flop (within reason, but you aren't looking for a reason not to c/r).
2. 3-bet pre-flop lead any flop (again, within reason). This should be the only way you defend from the SB because you don't want the BB to come along.

If either of these lines get to the turn you'll have to play a little poker. In this hand putting any money in the pot on the river with ace high isn't a very good idea. The only hands you are ahead of are Qx and you split or lose to Ax hands. The last thing you want to do is turn BD into a pissing contest where you mistake aggression for cards. Oh, and they aren't stealing as much as you think they are so don't think you have to defend every crap hand you have in the blinds.

Re: blind steal/blind defense.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, and they aren't stealing as much as you think they are so don't think you have to defend every crap hand you have in the blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so true, especially at that limit.

Re: blind steal/blind defense.
 

Not a good hand to defend with.

Not a good flop to mess with. Those cards hit his range way too often.

Re: blind steal/blind defense.
 

goddammit son, this aint a blind defence, this is a blind gone crazy. you didn't hit [censored] and still just fire away with abandon. Did you learn this from watchin my HU matches? Back off a little there bro. Ace hi is the nutz but geez.

If this is some kind of a joke post, then nh.

Re: blind steal/blind defense.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not a good hand to defend with.

Not a good flop to mess with. Those cards hit his range way too often.

[/ QUOTE ]

? How is this not a good hand to defend with?

Re: blind steal/blind defense.
 

Because of this:
[ QUOTE ]
He stole my blinds 4 times in a row.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with this:
[ QUOTE ]
Not a good hand to defend with.

[/ QUOTE ]
But I do agree with this:
[ QUOTE ]
Not a good flop to mess with. Those cards hit his range way too often.

[/ QUOTE ]
And definitely don't put in anywhere near that many bets. Also, I'd be real tempted to fold the river.

Re: blind steal/blind defense.
 

Defending your blinds against an aggro stealer is not about spewing chips with marginal hands. It's about folding weak hands, getting to showdown with marginal hands, and making villain spew chips when you have a strong hand.

Re: blind steal/blind defense.
 

Your defense range should depend on villains range and the rake.

Since you didnt post any reads I assume that villain is unknown. With the high rake at 0.1/0.2, folding A4o will not affect your winrate a lot.

Against an aggresive stealer you should definetely defend with A4o against the button. In fact I would defend with my top 65% HU against a player who steal more than 35%.

About the hand. The bet/3-bet on the flop is spew. You dont have eq and he is not folding a better hand. The turn donk is silly as well. He is not going anywhere and your draw is weak. By the river your only chance of winning is betting, but I dont think he folds enough to make it worthwhile.

c/f flop. As played c/f turn. As played c/f river. You really messed this one up.

Re: blind steal/blind defense.
 

If he really stole your blind often recently you might really defend with A4. But then please 3-bet preflop.

As played, flop is pure spew. As played, I c/f river. I might c/c river with a read.

Re: blind steal/blind defense.
 

[ QUOTE ]
c/f flop. As played c/f turn. As played c/f river. You really messed this one up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: blind steal/blind defense.
 

It's not terrible to defend with. I just don't like playing unsuited Ace-little type hands. I would just wait for a bigger hand if I suspect he's stealing, and open up with 3town.

It's much better for metagame if you can pick up a really solid hand in the BB and really make him spew against it. After you get to showdown and he sees you are 3banging and raising with a legit hand, then you can abuse this image later by 3 banging hands like these, and narrow his stealing range and also pick up pots by 3banging and autobetting flops that miss him since he fears you have a big hand again. Also if you decide to defend with hands like 98 later on, and he plays back at you a little, get to showdown and you might win pots from him on low boards since he figures you have all overcards.

Re: blind steal/blind defense.
 

Slicer,

I am 3-betting any ace against this dude pre flop but really a .10/.20 game where this happens that often is not worth playing in. Find another table.

Re: blind steal/blind defense.
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's much better for metagame if you can pick up a really solid hand in the BB and really make him spew against it. After you get to showdown and he sees you are 3banging and raising with a legit hand, then you can abuse this image later by 3 banging hands like these, and narrow his stealing range and also pick up pots by 3banging and autobetting flops that miss him since he fears you have a big hand again. Also if you decide to defend with hands like 98 later on, and he plays back at you a little, get to showdown and you might win pots from him on low boards since he figures you have all overcards.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think you should overestimate the whole blind stealing at a limit like this.
Stepping up and 3banging preflop against someone who has picked on stealing your blinds might often be enough to stop people from stealing with all kind of trash.
Your whole metagame thing sounds quite nice but IMHO everything involved with blindstealing depends too strongly on your opponent to make good advice be so easy.

Re: blind steal/blind defense.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your whole metagame thing sounds quite nice but IMHO everything involved with blindstealing depends too strongly on your opponent to make good advice be so easy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. The higher you move up (let's say FR 1/2 and above; .5/1 and above 6max), the more each hand you play from MP on becomes a "blindsteal". Considerations like the above are then pretty much standard and quite generalizable.

Re: blind steal/blind defense.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's much better for metagame if you can pick up a really solid hand in the BB and really make him spew against it. After you get to showdown and he sees you are 3banging and raising with a legit hand, then you can abuse this image later by 3 banging hands like these, and narrow his stealing range and also pick up pots by 3banging and autobetting flops that miss him since he fears you have a big hand again. Also if you decide to defend with hands like 98 later on, and he plays back at you a little, get to showdown and you might win pots from him on low boards since he figures you have all overcards.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think you should overestimate the whole blind stealing at a limit like this.
Stepping up and 3banging preflop against someone who has picked on stealing your blinds might often be enough to stop people from stealing with all kind of trash.
Your whole metagame thing sounds quite nice but IMHO everything involved with blindstealing depends too strongly on your opponent to make good advice be so easy.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's sorta over simplified the way I put it, as sometimes you really do have to make a stand before you get a decent good sized hand, but you can at least make your show down strong (top pair, etc). This is also why I'd prefer to make a play with a suited connector like 65s over A4o. You can put in a lot of bets as a semibluff to get them to fold, or on the chance you hit a big hand like a straight or flush, you show off that you're not putting in raises with garbage (river obviously, but he'll probably extrapolate to mean you flopped hard in the future if you put in bets on the flop, or even big hand preflop since you put in 3bets preflop, etc). You get the point.

However, I think it's a little silly if you believe that someone who is incorporating blind stealing into their game isn't taking metagame and image into consideration as well.

Re: blind steal/blind defense.
 

Why is it that everybody wants to 3-bet this hand preflop?

So the guy is an aggresive stealer with a wide range of hands. Say you 3-bet A4 and flop comes AT3 and if he dosent fold Hero is likely dominated. Unless he has a better A he is folding almost always on the flop. If OTOH hero just calls he can get a flop c-bet and often a 2'nd barrel out of villain.
Now say the flop comes 268. Villain should know Hero has high cards and that this flop likely missed him. Bang villan raise the flop with air and Hero is screwed cuz a call down is marginal.

With ragged A's against an aggresive stealer I much prefer to just call preflop, c/r flops that connects and look for SD on flops that doesnt connect that good with villains range.

3-betting Axo with x&lt;8 against most villains is silly

Re: blind steal/blind defense.
 

Oink,

With any ace against a blind stealer you likely have the best hand. After most flops you will still likely have the best hand. He isn't only calling ace high flops with a better ace he could call down with anything. 3-betting a stealer pre flop will also slow down his stealing.

Re: blind steal/blind defense.
 

[ QUOTE ]
However, I think it's a little silly if you believe that someone who is incorporating blind stealing into their game isn't taking metagame and image into consideration as well.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's not what I wanted to say or what I think. Of course it's pretty standard to consider this kind of things, but I also think the main image or metagame consideration that is going on with our villain in the given hand might very easily just be like "hey, this guys is folding all the time and im winning pf with 73o, how cool is that".
Stepping up with a somewhat decent hand might end this quite quickly even without TP.

Re: blind steal/blind defense.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oink,

With any ace against a blind stealer you likely have the best hand. After most flops you will still likely have the best hand. He isn't only calling ace high flops with a better ace he could call down with anything. 3-betting a stealer pre flop will also slow down his stealing.

[/ QUOTE ]

The hand plays easier after the flop IMO for the reasons I mentioned. I dont care much about pushing slim equity edges preflop, but care more about how the hand plays postflop.

Playing back a lot on the flop and turn will also slow down his stealing!

BTW. Slightly different spot, but this post by Stigmata in mid high stakes explains my thoughts pretty well.

Re: blind steal/blind defense.
 

Oink,

Stigmata's post in the link is good. I prefer 3-betting pre at the limits i play. Over lots of hands i feel its more effective but the fact is you should probably mix it up and do both against a stealer.

Re: blind steal/blind defense.
 

I'd fold this and wait for a better hand. A4o is tough to play out of position on most flops.

The way villain appears to play he's got to steal a lot of blinds to make up for the pay-off he's willing to give to a ligit defence.