mlg is aggressive, right?
 

hand from full tilt 400k, he recently got moved to the table and lost a big pot where he floated with a gutshot and hit against a set who filled up on the river. I doubt he's on tilt or anything from it though.

9-handed:
Seat 7: Gents (4,500)
Seat 8: anakinso (7,675)
Seat 9: Funkii (7,889)
noniserb posts the small blind of 40
lackingaces posts the big blind of 80
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Funkii [Ac Qc]
RivRunsDeep folds
Gents calls 80
anakinso raises to 320
Funkii calls 320
6 folds
*** FLOP *** [9c Jd Jc]
anakinso bets 680
Funkii calls 680
*** TURN *** [9c Jd Jc] [Qs]
anakinso bets 1,180
Funkii calls 1,180
*** RIVER *** [9c Jd Jc Qs] [2d]

thoughts on anything are welcome

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

Good so far.. although def slim. You can fold to a river bet I think.

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

I might raise the flop.
Turn is an easy call.

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

Looks ok
I might reraise preflop

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

not sure where this is going, postflop is fine and fold to a lot of river bets

but i 3bet pf

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

oh, I'm an idiot, he shoved the river but I deleted it by accident. it was slightly over a psb (also note the turn bet size, 1200 into a 2k pot)

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

if he's bluffing, he's folding out AQc and TT. that's about it that takes the line you did (and you obv 3bet those pf quite a bit as well)

so it'd be horrible spew if he's not like boated up on flop or turn here, or riv i guess

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
if he's bluffing, he's folding out AQc and TT. that's about it that takes the line you did (and you obv 3bet those pf quite a bit as well)

so it'd be horrible spew if he's not like boated up on flop or turn here, or riv i guess

[/ QUOTE ]

what if I almost never 3bet those preflop?

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if he's bluffing, he's folding out AQc and TT. that's about it that takes the line you did (and you obv 3bet those pf quite a bit as well)

so it'd be horrible spew if he's not like boated up on flop or turn here, or riv i guess

[/ QUOTE ]

what if I almost never 3bet those preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

then the % of your range that you call flop/call turn/fold river increased to like 2.1%

edit: and misread HH. thought you, limper, and MLG were all in LP. stop being too cool for a converter [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] and yeah, forget the preflop 3bet in that case pretty much

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

I thought full tilt converters didn't work, my bad, someone feel free to post a converted version

edit: or rather, a converter

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I thought full tilt converters didn't work, my bad, someone feel free to post a converted version

edit: or rather, a converter

[/ QUOTE ]

http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php

http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter/

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

my turn betting frequency definitely depends on what i think of your flop call range. How often do you slow play a J, do you float me with a pair or KQ type hand (so do i think you think im really speeding)...in general how much of your range do i think i can fold out on the turn and such. I dont want to ruin the thread here, so i wont say what my impressions were, but those i think are the questions to consider....also obviously, funkii needs to give an opinion to how wide i would be raising a limper at the time, since the wider im raising the more of a two barrel bluffing range i have.

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

I think preflop is closer to a fold than it is a three bet, but I haven't played with MLG and I don't have a crazy image so I can get paid off worse here.
I sometimes raise the flop, but a call is obviously fine.
Turn is a clear call.
River is close. I think I fold here he pretty much never has a missed draw since the Ac and Qc are dead, he isn't vbetting worse so you need him to have complete air a really large percentage of the time here.

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think preflop is closer to a fold than it is a three bet, but I haven't played with MLG and I don't have a crazy image so I can get paid off worse here.
I sometimes raise the flop, but a call is obviously fine.
Turn is a clear call.
River is close. I think I fold here he pretty much never has a missed draw since the Ac and Qc are dead, he isn't vbetting worse so you need him to have complete air a really large percentage of the time here.

[/ QUOTE ]

folding is not an option vs mlg (preflop that is)

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

Good so far. If he bets large on the river I would strongly consider folding.

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

You need to pop pf, his range for raising to isolate is huge, and he's going to expect to outplay the pf limper in position.

Once u decide to float the flop then u r good to get it all-in on many turns whether u hit ur hand or not, the q is of course an easy push.

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

congrats, funkii, on the 11th place finish.

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
congrats, funkii, on the 11th place finish.

[/ QUOTE ]

*suicide*

[ QUOTE ]
You need to pop pf, his range for raising to isolate is huge, and he's going to expect to outplay the pf limper in position.

Once u decide to float the flop then u r good to get it all-in on many turns whether u hit ur hand or not, the q is of course an easy push.

[/ QUOTE ]

well... glad there's some disagreement...
I'm guessing you also missed that it's 9handed and utg+1 (limper) vs utg+2 (mlg), but just in case you didn't:
How wide do you think he raises there? I honestly have no clue, but my guess is something like ATs+,AJ+,88+,KQ or something. I think 3betting with AQ sucks a lot, I wouldn't even 3bet w/ AQ if he was opening here.
Why is the Q an easy push? What does that accomplish?

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

The purpose of floating the flop is not to hit ur 4.5 outs or so. It's to take the pot on the turn by representing the best hand. The Q here hits alot of hands. Think about what other hands u can have here.

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

loc your statement makes no sense. Do you expect to fold out a bigger hand when you shove?

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

exactly what hands (except air obv) is MLG bet/folding on the turn?

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
exactly what hands (except air obv) is MLG bet/folding on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

none, hence locutus not making any sense.

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

No, on the turn, I expect to get paid by AQ (partially paid) and KQ, and TT, (20 hands). The other hands I'm going to pay on the river anyways(AJ, JJ, 99, KK, AA).

I think villain's turn bet is interesting because it is small enough to not commit hero to the pot, and gives villain maximum FE to push the river. It is also consistent with pricing many drawing hands like AT, AK, etc.

I think villain's range has to include AT, AK and many pairs, and that villain should expect some FE from TT and other pairs when he pushes the river.

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

I disagree w/ everything you said, like literally.

That said, I really have to do work and I just dont have the patience to disagree w/ you every thread.

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

when i said reraise pf i had no idea you 3 were in ep, that is somewhat unclear from your OP. i thought limper was on button and mlg raised from the sb.

obviously now i wouldn't reraise PF, but, uh, i'm not sure what to do postflop here because MLG isn't doing this with a worse made hand but also is totally unafraid to 3 barrel shove here, which is why i tend to raise the flop and try to get it in and hope for the best. his bet sizing looks like he's setting up for a river shove which just makes your life hell.. i dunno. sorry, this post is kinda worthless.

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
No, on the turn, I expect to get paid by AQ (partially paid) and KQ, and TT, (20 hands). The other hands I'm going to pay on the river anyways(AJ, JJ, 99, KK, AA).

[/ QUOTE ]

Joe,

MLG is checking the turn with AA/AQ/KQ/TT almost ALL the time.

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

Just so everyone knows, MLG's turn bet is pretty smallish. He bet 1180 into 2200.

Nobody seems to have mentioned why they think MLG would do that.

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

I was gonna say "to set up a pot-sized river shove" but it's a little small for that

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

btw this really is a fold but in reality it isnt necessarily cause it's mlg.

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
btw this really is a fold but in reality it isnt necessarily cause it's mlg.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is less a of a fold because it's MLG. Isn't it more of a fold because it's Funkii?

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
btw this really is a fold but in reality it isnt necessarily cause it's mlg.

[/ QUOTE ]
yeah that's kind of where i was going with that ramble

is it bad to raise the flop here?

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

I'd raise the flop (so perhaps assume it's bad.)

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

IMHO, the flop's a really subtle spot. Either play is totally fine, but if MLG thinks you're likely to bluff in this spot, then raising is really awful. If he thinks you're unlikely to bluff here, not raising is really awful.

Stack sizes should be a really big consideration when deciding which play to make here. I think when in doubt, calling is better here due to stack sizes.

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
IMHO, the flop's a really subtle spot. Either play is totally fine, but if MLG thinks you're likely to bluff in this spot, then raising is really awful.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why? If he's likely to rebluff, he may actually have a worse hand, and we're far more likely to have all 15 outs if he thinks we're likely to bluff and rebluff. So we call and take a chance to knock out a very tough player and have a huge stack early.

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

word nath

I'd consider it a good thing if MLG 3 bet on a bluff a lot here.

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

Right.. I'm stupid.

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

funkii,
odd as it seems you have my iso range kinda wrong, its too slim in that there are way more hands that im willing to iso raise with, but at the same time im pretty likely to limp the lower end of the range you listed. Although to be fairm, thats because the stacks behind me were all pretty deep. So like, Im often gonna limp behind with KQ, but i'll pop JTs kind of a thing.

whoever said it,
i am certainly willing to v-bet AA on the turn although im almost always checking AQ/KQ/TT

locutus,
odd as it is i think i get what you're trying to say...which is that my small turn bet keeps my range super wide and weak including many draws. therefore you've decided you're calling me down no matter what. therefore given that i have many drawing hands, and you will feel the need to call on the river no matter what given that you think i can 3-bet often, you think raising now to protect your hand when you're ahead is better than waiting till the river when i will be deciding how often the money goes in. do i have that right?

ansky/noah,
i am not going to 3-bet air very often on that flop, pretty much any 3-bet i make will either be super strong or a hand which i think has many outs.

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
locutus,
odd as it is i think i get what you're trying to say...which is that my small turn bet keeps my range super wide and weak including many draws. therefore you've decided you're calling me down no matter what. therefore given that i have many drawing hands, and you will feel the need to call on the river no matter what given that you think i can 3-bet often, you think raising now to protect your hand when you're ahead is better than waiting till the river when i will be deciding how often the money goes in. do i have that right?


[/ QUOTE ]

This is basically what I meant, except I don't want to "protect" my hand when I'm ahead, but rather get paid by drawing hands while they still have a draw. Consider TT which might pay on the turn but fold on the river. Because of the overlay and size of the pot both sides should be willing to make an EV- call with about 11 outs or so. Also it's very real for MLG to fold the river if a club comes in the cases where he doesn't hav the nuts.

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

that is a very bad board to make a heroic call on, even vs. mlg, when mlg just got caught floating with crap a few minutes ago. although of course that changes a bit if he knows your SN.

also fwiw, I raise the flop because when MLG 'shoves with outs' you have most of those hands crushed.

Re: mlg is aggressive, right?
 

ad,
i knew who he was, we had chatted a little. also i didnt particularly get caught floating with crap. i raised preflop and called a half pot donkbet from the SB with KJ on a Q93 flop. just notable in that it doesnt eally change the dynamics all that much. as for raising the flop, and getting me to "shove with outs" he has me a little crippled since i cant have the nut flush draw or KcQc type hands which makes it tricky.

generally though, i think raising the flop v me is close to mandatory.