Nobel Laureate Shot by Israeli Soldier (rubber bullet)
 

"I never in all my years of activism witnessed anything so vicious as from the Israeli military", said Irish peace activist and Nobel Laureate Mairead Maguire in an interview with Amy Goodman on democracy now She was shot with a rubber bullet by a 20 year old Israeli soldier.

Maguire, and several hundred protestors from 20 different countries converged in the palestinian town of Bilin to protest the construction of yet another "security wall." The wall is being constructed inside of palestinian land. Instead of enforcing the green line, it actually expands the green line. Palestinian farmers have lost their land, and the palestinian economy has been further damaged.

Israel's behavior is fully consistent with it's overall policy of collective punishment. The IDF will demolish houses, set up road check-points, seize land, and perform other violent activities against the entire population as a way to punish them for the actions of terrorists.

Any form of collective punishment is illegal under international law. However, the only way to enforce this law is for the security council of the UN to vote on it. Israel will remain immune from the judgment of the security council, because any of the five permanent members can veto a security council resolution. There have been many resolutions by the security council criticizing Israel for violating human rights that would have passed, were it not for the automatic veto of the United States.

This is far from the first time the IDF has acted violently towards international peace activists. In 2002, an american peace activist, Rachel Corrie, was run down and killed by an Israeli Bulldozer. Rachel was trying to stop the bulldozer from destroying a family's home.

The reality is that Israel can get any with almost anything it wants to, because of the unconditional support it receives from the United States. In addition to receiving over 3 billion dollars per year in aid and loans from the US, Israel receives powerful diplomatic support that shields them from the international community.

Intellectually dishonest right wing zionists are quick to label the international community anti-semitic, despite the fact that many of the most vocal critics of Israel, such as Noam Chomsky, the Rabbi Michael Lerner, Howard Zinn, Ami Ayalon, and Norman Finkelstein, are jews themselves.

In my view, the united states should withdraw financial and military support from Israel until Israel agrees to stop it's policy of expanding it's borders and engaging in collective punishment.

Re: Nobel Laureate Shot by Israeli Soldier (rubber bullet)
 

I don't have much to say about your post, but I'm wondering if someone could give me a summary of the political factors involved in Israel's creation back in the 50's or provide me with a good link. I don't understand very well what happened.

Here's the picture I have of it currently: There was a huge Zionism movement in Europe after WW2 and the holocaust, and the heart of this movement was the desire for a homeland in the Middle East. So the United Nations (or was it Britain, or NATO?) decided to give them a country in the middle of Palestine despite the fact that a million people or something in this ballpark lived there already.

Am I close? What motivated the UN/Britain/whoever? It seems obvious to me that they wouldn't have done it from the goodness of their hearts. Did they want a military foothold there because of the oil or what?

Re: Nobel Laureate Shot by Israeli Soldier (rubber bullet)
 

I agree.

I challenge any Israel supporters to demonstrate which parts of this post aren't accurate depictions of the situation. Particularly Mason Malmuth.

Re: Nobel Laureate Shot by Israeli Soldier (rubber bullet)
 

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I don't have much to say about your post, but I'm wondering if someone could give me a summary of the political factors involved in Israel's creation back in the 50's or provide me with a good link. I don't understand very well what happened.

Here's the picture I have of it currently: There was a huge Zionism movement in Europe after WW2 and the holocaust, and the heart of this movement was the desire for a homeland in the Middle East. So the United Nations (or was it Britain, or NATO?) decided to give them a country in the middle of Palestine despite the fact that a million people or something in this ballpark lived there already.

Am I close? What motivated the UN/Britain/whoever? It seems obvious to me that they wouldn't have done it from the goodness of their hearts. Did they want a military foothold there because of the oil or what?

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Britain owned Palestine and then ceded control to the UN with an eye towards the creation of a Jewish state. There were many reasons for them giving up control, but I think the main ones were:
a) There was already a lot of violence between Jews and Arabs and the British didn't want to get caught in the middle
b) There was a lot resentment in the Middle East as a whole towards Britain because of imperialism, so the British generally wanted to leave the region
c) They felt bad for the Jews and wanted them tp create their own state
d) The British wanted to continue their noble tradition of forcibly and brutally colonizing foreign lands and exiting abruptly after having rendered the country completely disfunctional.

Re: Nobel Laureate Shot by Israeli Soldier (rubber bullet)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't have much to say about your post, but I'm wondering if someone could give me a summary of the political factors involved in Israel's creation back in the 50's or provide me with a good link. I don't understand very well what happened.

Here's the picture I have of it currently: There was a huge Zionism movement in Europe after WW2 and the holocaust, and the heart of this movement was the desire for a homeland in the Middle East. So the United Nations (or was it Britain, or NATO?) decided to give them a country in the middle of Palestine despite the fact that a million people or something in this ballpark lived there already.

Am I close? What motivated the UN/Britain/whoever? It seems obvious to me that they wouldn't have done it from the goodness of their hearts. Did they want a military foothold there because of the oil or what?

[/ QUOTE ]

In 1956, Britain used Israel to attack Egypt and regain control of the Suez canal. However, the US was extremely unhappy about that. It's hard to say why the US, USSR, Britain, France, and China supported the UN partition, because all those countries had differing political interests.

At the time though, there was a lot of hooplah about human rights and peace and stuff like that. The Universal declaration of human rights was written around that time, and signed by a lot of different countries. I think people around the world were shocked about the genocide against the jews, and wanted to do something to help them.

A cynical viewpoint would be that the zionist terrorist organizations had grown too powerful for britain to control, and so Britain was just taking what they thought was the winning side by supporting a UN partition. Explaining the suport from the other countries is maybe a bit harder, but probably not beyond the ability of good historical scholarship.

Re: Nobel Laureate Shot by Israeli Soldier (rubber bullet)
 

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zionist terrorist organizations

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Examples please.

Edit: never mind, Link

Re: Nobel Laureate Shot by Israeli Soldier (rubber bullet)
 

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I agree.

I challenge any Israel supporters to demonstrate which parts of this post aren't accurate depictions of the situation. Particularly Mason Malmuth.

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Mason already made his position clear when he argued that Israel has the "moral high ground" and therefore it doesn't matter very much if they behave badly, because they are within their rights. Conversely, the arabs want to destroy the jews and america, and therefore have no rights.

This is a pretty familiar manichean paradigm with dubious claims to truth. It can justify almost anything, and it has, throughout history.

Re: Nobel Laureate Shot by Israeli Soldier (rubber bullet)
 

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n 2002, an american peace activist, Rachel Corrie, was run down and killed by an Israeli Bulldozer. Rachel was trying to stop the bulldozer from destroying a family's home.


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lol

Re: Nobel Laureate Shot by Israeli Soldier (rubber bullet)
 

I should add that I fully support Israel's right to exist, and defend against terrorism, and I'm sure you do too. I would go to war to defend Israel if it came to that.

And Israel has had the moral high ground for a long time. They were and have been (40-60 years ago) ruthlessly attacked by Arabs, fighting a war for their very existence. But that "moral high ground" is two generations old.

Their recent actions tell a different story. In addition to the things mentioned above, they performed a massive cluster bombing of Lebanon's civilian areas in 2006 as the war was winding up - leaving over (I kid you not - see the link above) 100,000 unexploded bombs lying in Lebanon's civilian areas. These actions are nothing short of state sponsored terrorism (according to almost every definition) and I'm saddened that thoughtful men like Mason don't speak out against it.

Re: Nobel Laureate Shot by Israeli Soldier (rubber bullet)
 

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I should add that I fully support Israel's right to exist, and defend against terrorism, and I'm sure you do too. I would go to war to defend Israel if it came to that.


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ahahahahahahahahaha

Re: Nobel Laureate Shot by Israeli Soldier (rubber bullet)
 

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n 2002, an american peace activist, Rachel Corrie, was run down and killed by an Israeli Bulldozer. Rachel was trying to stop the bulldozer from destroying a family's home.


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lol


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What's funny? [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

R.I.P. Rachel http://italy.indymedia.org/uploads/2...ivz.jpgmid.jpg

Re: Nobel Laureate Shot by Israeli Soldier (rubber bullet)
 

I fail to see what's funny about that. Israel has an absolute right to exist within its 1947 UN mandated boundaries, and I absolutely support that right. If it came to war I would support my government sending troops, even if I was one of them.

Do you have anything to add besides "lol" and "ahahahahaah"? It's hard to have a conversation like that.

Re: Nobel Laureate Shot by Israeli Soldier (rubber bullet)
 

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What's funny?


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The idea that an Israeli soldier would "run down and kill" an American peace activist. A palestinian perhaps, but the driver would have to be borderline retarded to kill an American like that.

Re: Nobel Laureate Shot by Israeli Soldier (rubber bullet)
 

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I fail to see what's funny about that. Israel has an absolute right to exist within its 1947 UN mandated boundaries, and I absolutely support that right. If it came to war I would support my government sending troops, even if I was one of them.

Do you have anything to add besides "lol" and "ahahahahaah"? It's hard to have a conversation like that.

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I thought you were implying that you would volunteer to go and fight for Israel if it was in peril, I'm Jewish and I wouldn't even consider it.

I agree with you that the cluster bombing was stupid, unnecessary and vile (and most importantly ineffective). But, while the Israelies have to understand that the price of occupation is terrorism, the Arabs have to understand the price of continued war against Israel is uninterrupted and unending suffering.

Re: Nobel Laureate Shot by Israeli Soldier (rubber bullet)
 

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What's funny?


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The idea that an Israeli soldier would "run down and kill" an American peace activist. A palestinian perhaps, but the driver would have to be borderline retarded to kill an American like that.


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Maybe he was just pretty sure he could get away with it? That's not such a crazy idea (as it seems to have worked). The IDF gets away with a lot of other stuff, like shooting nobel laureates for example.

Re: Nobel Laureate Shot by Israeli Soldier (rubber bullet)
 

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In my view, the united states should withdraw financial and military support from Israel until Israel agrees to stop it's policy of expanding it's borders and engaging in collective punishment.

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??

This seems backwards. They have a specific reason why they give financial and military support, and those things are exactly it. What else could it possibly be for?

Re: Nobel Laureate Shot by Israeli Soldier (rubber bullet)
 

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I agree with you that the cluster bombing was stupid, unnecessary and vile (and most importantly ineffective)

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It doesn't take much reflection of the above statement to see that this poster has much work to do in order to get his ethical priorities straight.

Re: Nobel Laureate Shot by Israeli Soldier (rubber bullet)
 

And people wonder why 2+2 wants to shut down this forum?

Re: Nobel Laureate Shot by Israeli Soldier (rubber bullet)
 

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I agree with you that the cluster bombing was stupid, unnecessary and vile (and most importantly ineffective)

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It doesn't take much reflection of the above statement to see that this poster has much work to do in order to get his ethical priorities straight.

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plz elaborate

Re: Nobel Laureate Shot by Israeli Soldier (rubber bullet)
 

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n 2002, an american peace activist, Rachel Corrie, was run down and killed by an Israeli Bulldozer. Rachel was trying to stop the bulldozer from destroying a family's home.


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lol


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What's funny? [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

R.I.P. Rachel http://italy.indymedia.org/uploads/2...ivz.jpgmid.jpg





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Darwinism is alive.

A Turtle Can Out-Run a Bulldozer
 

A turtle can out run a armored bulldozer.
This nitwit stood in front of an armored bulldozer and committed suicide. She probably expected the driver would see her and stop. Dumb thinking on her part...

Since Arabs like to shoot at Israelis in bulldozer exacting retribution against murders, these bulldozers are armored which greatly restricts their visability... This young girl was a nitwit.... I wondered if this incident qualified for the Darwin Awards?

Re: A Turtle Can Out-Run a Bulldozer
 

Disparaging the memory of someone who died attempting to nonviolently protect Palestinian homes from demolition whether or not you agree with the politics, wisdom, or efficacy of that action just makes you look like callous [censored].

Re: A Turtle Can Out-Run a Bulldozer
 

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Disparaging the memory of someone who died attempting to nonviolently protect Palestinian homes from demolition whether or not you agree with the politics, wisdom, or efficacy of that action just makes you look like callous [censored].

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So calling Steve Irwin a moron is OK since he wasn't doing it for a cause?

Re: A Turtle Can Out-Run a Bulldozer
 

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A turtle can out run a armored bulldozer.
This nitwit stood in front of an armored bulldozer and committed suicide. She probably expected the driver would see her and stop. Dumb thinking on her part...


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[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
The driver both heard her and saw her. She had a bullhorn. This was murder. I always knew your viewpoints were callous, but this is a new low for you. The rest of your political viewpoints make a lot more sense to me now.

Re: Nobel Laureate Shot by Israeli Soldier (rubber bullet)
 

Re: Rachel Corrie
From Ha'aretz

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The ISM activists then deployed in the area and used bullhorns to call on the drivers to stop.

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According to the ISM activist, Corrie was wearing a bright jacket and climbed onto the bulldozer shovel-plow and began shouting at the driver. "There's no way he didn't see her, since she was practically looking into the cabin. At one stage, he turned around toward the building. The bulldozer kept moving, and she slipped and fell off the plow. But the bulldozer kept moving, the shovel above her. I guess it was about 10 or 15 meters that it dragged her and for some reason didn't stop. We shouted like crazy to the driver through loudspeakers that he should stop, but he just kept going and didn't lift the shovel. Then it stopped and backed up. We ran to Rachel. She was still breathing."

According to the activists, the tank arrived on the scene and was only 20 meters away, but the soldiers did not offer any assistance.

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Re: A Turtle Can Out-Run a Bulldozer
 

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So calling Steve Irwin a moron is OK since he wasn't doing it for a cause?

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Who is Steve Irwin? and when have I called him a moron?

Re: A Turtle Can Out-Run a Bulldozer
 

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So calling Steve Irwin a moron is OK since he wasn't doing it for a cause?

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Who is Steve Irwin? and when have I called him a moron?

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The Crocodile Hunter.
You haven't. I'm just asking if its ok to call him a moron. The guy plays with the world's deadlies animals then ends up killed by a stingray. I don't feel sorry for him and think he was a moron. I do feel sorry for his wife and kids.

Same with this girl. She was doing something extremely stupid. When you try to play hero in a war zone, you have a very good shot of ending up dead. She did. I feel bad for her family, though.

Re: A Turtle Can Out-Run a Bulldozer
 

So by that logic, any police officer or soldier killed in the line of duty should get no sympathy right? and any condemnation for the actions of those that killed them are off limits right? after all, they know those jobs are dangerous, they could have been a baker or candlestick maker right?

Re: A Turtle Can Out-Run a Bulldozer
 

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So by that logic, any police officer or soldier killed in the line of duty should get no sympathy right? and any condemnation for the actions of those that killed them are off limits right? after all, they know those jobs are dangerous, they could have been a baker or candlestick maker right?

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If a solidier does something idiotic like run in front of a tank, I agree.

Re: A Turtle Can Out-Run a Bulldozer
 

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So by that logic, any police officer or soldier killed in the line of duty should get no sympathy right? and any condemnation for the actions of those that killed them are off limits right? after all, they know those jobs are dangerous, they could have been a baker or candlestick maker right?


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If a solidier does something idiotic like run in front of a tank, I agree.


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I don't get it. Do you condemn or approve of the murder of Rachel Corrie?

Re: A Turtle Can Out-Run a Bulldozer
 

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So by that logic, any police officer or soldier killed in the line of duty should get no sympathy right? and any condemnation for the actions of those that killed them are off limits right? after all, they know those jobs are dangerous, they could have been a baker or candlestick maker right?

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EXACTLY .. if you cant runn w/ the big dogs etc etc. Puting on a uniform and "puting your life on the line" means exactly that. You cant just take a mulligan when the tank is crushing you or the bullet strikes.

Re: A Turtle Can Out-Run a Bulldozer
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


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So by that logic, any police officer or soldier killed in the line of duty should get no sympathy right? and any condemnation for the actions of those that killed them are off limits right? after all, they know those jobs are dangerous, they could have been a baker or candlestick maker right?


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If a solidier does something idiotic like run in front of a tank, I agree.


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I don't get it. Do you condemn or approve of the murder of Rachel Corrie?

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LOL at loading the question. It was not murder.

Re: A Turtle Can Out-Run a Bulldozer
 

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The driver both heard her and saw her. She had a bullhorn. This was murder.

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I never heard about a bullhorn.
If I accept the premise that she had a bullhorn, then she played a game of chicken and she lost.

Assuming your assertions are correct, then this is not murder.
1st. The driver of the bulldozer could correctly assume that instincts would takeover and she would get out-of-the-way.
2nd. By Israeli law, the actions of the driver to knock down that house was legal.
3rd. By Israeli law, the actions of this girl were illegal.
4th. If the girl had not placed herself in the path of a bulldozer, then she would be alive today.
5th. She had the power to get out of the way. She chose not to. This is pretty stupid on her part.
6th. The driver could get killed for leaving his bulldozer to physical remove her. The reason why these bulldozers are armored. Arab snipers have a history of trying to kill them. To leave his vehicle was to risk his life. This girl had ZERO right to jeopardize the driver's life by compeling him to leave the safety of his vehicle...
7th. You ignore the innocent deaths of Israelis committed by a member of this terrorist family. They were unarmed and yet Arab terrorists murdered them. These deaths were murder...unlike the death of this girl.

Yes, I am callous. Life made me this way. But it allows me to view situations in an more unemotional way. In this situation, this girl was an idiot. They are other ways to protest....she should have pursued other ways to protest.

Re: A Turtle Can Out-Run a Bulldozer
 

[ QUOTE ]
1st. The driver of the bulldozer could correctly assume that instincts would takeover and she would get out-of-the-way.
2nd. By Israeli law, the actions of the driver to knock down that house was legal.
3rd. By Israeli law, the actions of this girl were illegal.
4th. If the girl had not placed herself in the path of a bulldozer, then she would be alive today.
5th. She had the power to get out of the way. She chose not to. This is pretty stupid on her part.
6th. The driver could get killed for leaving his bulldozer to physical remove her. The reason why these bulldozers are armored. Arab snipers have a history of trying to kill them. To leave his vehicle was to risk his life. This girl had ZERO right to jeopardize the driver's life by compeling him to leave the safety of his vehicle...
7th. You ignore the innocent deaths of Israelis committed by a member of this terrorist family. They were unarmed and yet Arab terrorists murdered them. These deaths were murder...unlike the death of this girl.


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Right over the plate, as usual. Thanks Felix.

1st. Rachel could have assumed that the instincts of the driver would take over and he would not murder her.

2nd. By International law, the actions of the driver to knock down that house was illegal.
3rd. By International law, the actions of this girl were legal.
4th. If the driver had not run her over, she would be alive today
5th. He had the power to not murder her. This was pretty evil on his part.
6th. The action he was engaging in was a house demolition and is a form of collective punishment. This is expressly illegal underinternational law. The driver had ZERO right to even be in Gaza at that time, and he had ZERO right to demolish the hosue, and he had ZERO right to murder an innocent girl.
7th. "You ignore the innocent deaths of Israelis committed by a member of this terrorist family." Besides being stupid, your point is factually innacurate. The owner of the house was a doctor, and his family had nothing to do with terrorism. The house was being demolished under the pretense of uprooting tunnels that were supposedly being used to smuggle stuff in from egypt.

Re: A Turtle Can Out-Run a Bulldozer
 

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Yes, I am callous. Life made me this way.

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Please explain. I am very curious as to the sequence of life events that had to have occurred in order for you to become the person you are today.

Re: A Turtle Can Out-Run a Bulldozer
 

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Disparaging the memory of someone who died attempting to nonviolently protect Palestinian homes from demolition whether or not you agree with the politics, wisdom, or efficacy of that action just makes you look like callous [censored].

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I don't consider callousness to be a vice.
Why did this girl not protest the murdered Israelis that were killed by a suicide bomber's family? Selective outrage at its finest.

No evidence has been presented to me whether the driver saw her or not. Armored bulldozers have only a small peakhole to see where you are going. Bulldozer's are very loud and I suspect the driver was wearing ear protection as well. I was a tanker in the army and I ALWAYS wore ear protection... Snow claims the girl had a bullhorn. He provides no evidence to support this and the PLO have been notorius liars for years.

If she had a bullhorn, and
If the driver could hear the bullhorn over the noise of the dozer,
then as far as the driver knows the bullhorn noise could be coming from behind him. If he could NOT see her through the peak hole, then he wouldn't have a reason to stop...would he?

Re: A Turtle Can Out-Run a Bulldozer
 

Please do not call her a girl. She was not a girl. She was a grown woman. Of course, twisting the truth to make it a sadder cause is nothing new for you.

Re: A Turtle Can Out-Run a Bulldozer
 

If she was climbing on to a moving bulldozer with a bullhorn in one hand, slipped and fell off, and was run over you are way over the line calling this a murder.

Re: A Turtle Can Out-Run a Bulldozer
 

[ QUOTE ]
1st. Rachel could have assumed that the instincts of the driver would take over and he would not murder her.
2nd. By International law, the actions of the driver to knock down that house was illegal.
3rd. By International law, the actions of this girl were legal.
4th. If the driver had not run her over, she would be alive today
5th. He had the power to not murder her. This was pretty evil on his part.
6th. The action he was engaging in was a house demolition and is a form of collective punishment. This is expressly illegal underinternational law. The driver had ZERO right to even be in Gaza at that time, and he had ZERO right to demolish the hosue, and he had ZERO right to murder an innocent girl.
7th. "You ignore the innocent deaths of Israelis committed by a member of this terrorist family." Besides being stupid, your point is factually innacurate. The owner of the house was a doctor, and his family had nothing to do with terrorism. The house was being demolished under the pretense of uprooting tunnels that were supposedly being used to smuggle stuff in from egypt.

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A. There is NO SUCH THING as INTERNATIONAL LAW.
There are only treaties... If Israeli is violating a treaty that they ratified then provide evidence (which you can not). So please drop this ridiculous "international law nonsense".
B. She placed herself in danger. Even if she had a bullhorn then as far as the driver knew the noise could have been coming from behind him or the side. The driver has only a small peakhole to see where he is going. If he can't see her then stopping is not an option.
C. You don't know what the driver could see and not see through his peep-hole.
D. The Isreali govt had settlements in Gaza. of course they had the right to be there.
E. Collective punishment by Israelis towards the familes of suicide bombers is legal by Israeli law so cite a treaty that Israeli has ratified or please stop uttering this international law nonsense..
F. As for the context of an innocent family geting their house bulldozed, this does not pass the smell test. The modus operindi of the Israelis is to bulldoze the homes of the familes of terrorists that Have taken Israeli life. If you have evidence where they just go around bulldozing homes for fun.....then support your claim with a link. Don't expect me to do your homework for you....

And if you do provide a link, make it from a recognize news source. Not some PLO anti-jew site.

Jeez, She Is More Dumb Than I Thought
 

Here I will do your homework for you....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie
Israelis say their armored bulldozers were clearing brush and not engaged in a demolition.

So she died to save a few bushes and piles of rubble. No house was being demolished... Can you not concede this was stupid on her part to try to save some bushes? Surely we can find common ground here?