check call, bet call, or check fold
 

Loose passive 4/8 game
2 middle players call, Hero raises from the CO with AJ offsuit, the button calls and the BB calls.
5 players, the flop is K64 rainbow.
First three players check, Hero bets, button calls and the BB calls.
The turn is 7 and everyone checks.
The river is a Jack and BB checks.
Hero check calls, bet calls, or check folds?

Re: check call, bet call, or check fold
 

check/calling doesn't make much sense because the texture is such that there aren't many weaker hands or busted draws that will likely have a bet induced here. Your opponents are also loose passive, so you will often just have it checked behind when you're ahead.

Your list also needs to include a bet/fold line. For instance, if you bet, one player overcalls, and the third player raises, I think you should clearly fold.

Your toughest decision will be when you bet and have only one player raise you and see the next fold. The pot isn't very large and your opponents are passive, so I'd still tend to b/f, though you might call if your opponent has an atypically high river aggression or is capable of doing this with a weaker jack.

Re: check call, bet call, or check fold
 

I'd probably bet/fold here as your turn check is likely to get a call from nearly anything on the river, but a passive player who raises here would have us dead to rights far too often.

Re: check call, bet call, or check fold
 

Sorry, "or Bet fold"

Re: check call, bet call, or check fold
 

This was my read on the hand up to the river. After I raised PF and got 5 callers then bet this raggedy K high flop (representing a big hand)and got two callers the most likely hand that I put my opponents on was a weak suited King (especially the button). I guess they could have had a 6 or a medium PP or something but I really just didnt think so, and of course we would have heard from one of them had a crazy straight draw gotten there with the turn 7. So I was pretty much shutting down at that point. Then the Jack hit. So I am still not convinced that a B/F was in order here, but I am open minded to more discussion.

Re: check call, bet call, or check fold
 

I personally would check-call. You showed strenth before the flop and after the Flop. The calls of your opponents mean that they have drews or middle pair at the flop or top-pair with a weak kicker. The turn card may scare you because the big blind could hold 5-3 for a OESD after the Flop and a turned made streight. You got the river card for free and I would check-call to see a showdown. If someone bets at the river he might have a weaker jack but maybe he has a king or a streigt but I would check it and hope for a cheap showdown.
If you bet and someone reraises you because he thinks you want to steal the pot, it is much harder for you to call because his reraise means more then middle pair.

I'm looking forward to your reaktions.

Re: check call, bet call, or check fold
 

i think this is a check/call.i think a river bet here is only getting called by a king or better.check it down and hope for a freebie.

Re: check call, bet call, or check fold
 

Given the loose passive table read, I'll say bet-fold. A passive player is not going to raise you because he/she thinks you are stealing the pot - they would much rather call to keep you honest. However, if the player on the button somewhat more aggressive (especially if he/she prides himself/herself on hand reading), I prefer inducing a bet with a check-call.

Re: check call, bet call, or check fold
 

[ QUOTE ]
Given the loose passive table read, I'll say bet-fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying we should bet for value? What hands do you think he might call with that we beat? What hands do you think he will fold that we dont beat? Answer: Few and None. Due to the # of players to the flop, the PF and flop action I think a weak K is likely. I don't think that they will buy a bluff because of my check on the turn, thinking that if I had a big king or better that I probly would continued leading out on the turn.
If Im wrong please smack me down.

Re: check call, bet call, or check fold
 

this is just me, but i very rarely use the bet/fold line on the river with a marginal hand for fear of losing an entire pot to a bluff. i realize im losing some value here but doesnt the times you snapp a bluff, or prevent your opponant from raising by check/ calling in these situations make up for it? can someone correct my thinking here if im wrong, thanx.

Re: check call, bet call, or check fold
 

I too am not much of a bet-folder at all. I guess I have to be almost 100% sure I'm beat and even then I am almost always inclined to throw one more in. Maybe too loose but I hate folding for one more bet most of the time. In this case, if you are totally unsure just check call it I say. Only one more bet to possibly win the pot vs folding to lose the entire pot. I thnk the times you are good in this kind of situation make up for the times it costs you a bet on the end.

Re: check call, bet call, or check fold
 

In live, loose passive games, some players will automatically call a bet on the flop. This means the range of hands that are seeing the river here is much wider than a weak king.

Maybe bottom pair was chasing two pair. Maybe middle pair was chasing two pair. Maybe ace high does not believe you have a king and is peeling a card. Maybe 88, 99 or TT wants to see if you will bet again. Maybe a straight draw missed and now has third pair. There are different kinds of loose passive players, the line you choose on the river depends on how you read the table. If you are so certain someone must have a king at this table, then check, obviously.

Re: check call, bet call, or check fold
 

Bet fold.

The game is loose passive.

I check this flop a lot.

Re: check call, bet call, or check fold
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Given the loose passive table read, I'll say bet-fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying we should bet for value? What hands do you think he might call with that we beat? What hands do you think he will fold that we dont beat? Answer: Few and None. Due to the # of players to the flop, the PF and flop action I think a weak K is likely. I don't think that they will buy a bluff because of my check on the turn, thinking that if I had a big king or better that I probly would continued leading out on the turn.
If Im wrong please smack me down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it's a value bet.

You're definitely not getting a King to fold, but a King would have shown SOME aggression by now almost certainly.


You'll get called by an unlikely Jack as well as sevens, even sixes etc.

When you check the turn you basically tell everyone "I'm afraid of the King" even the bad players will pick up on this.

Don't be surprised if you get overcalled by A7 here a lot.