*The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/27/07
 

This is the official thread for debate and dicussion of Anarcho-Capitalism, and the necessity or lack thereof of a governing state.

Links to Former Anarcho-Capitalist, and discussion of "statism" Threads:

How Would an Acist suggest I act?

Somali Freedom Fighters

ACers on an Island

pvn would be proud.

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/27/07
 

Here is question I wanted to see answered by the AC folks.

In the AC island thread it was stated....

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Mind you: the initial population are all rational, non-theist, non-statist people with a solid understanding of fundamental and technical knowledge of reality

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Is this necessary for an AC system to work?

If yes, then how do you get this to work in any modern society we have today?



Also, what is "technical knowledge of reality"?

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

hmk posted in another thread about how the "first step" is a return to the gold standard. Personally, I don't see what's so great about it. Gold has very little intrinsic value compared to its perceived value. Plus, Gold is subject to inflation/deflation just like fiat currency.

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

I was gonna start a new thread, but figured I could just pose my question here first to see if it gets answered...

In AC-Land, wouldn't innovation / progress be extremely limited? Government-assisted monopolies (through patents, regulations, etc.) obviously have an incentive to improve their existing products and services, as well as create new ones. They stand to profit a great deal due to the potential of gaining monopoly control of the market. Without any government, however, won't most of the significant barriers to entry be eliminated? Won't this discourage innovation and economic progress?

I've recently adopted most of the basic views/opinions of anarcho-capitalists, but I've had trouble wrapping my mind around this idea in particular. Thanks in advance...

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

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I was gonna start a new thread, but figured I could just pose my question here first to see if it gets answered...

In AC-Land, wouldn't innovation / progress be extremely limited? Government-assisted monopolies (through patents, regulations, etc.) obviously have an incentive to improve their existing products and services, as well as create new ones. They stand to profit a great deal due to the potential of gaining monopoly control of the market. Without any government, however, won't most of the significant barriers to entry be eliminated? Won't this discourage innovation and economic progress?

I've recently adopted most of the basic views/opinions of anarcho-capitalists, but I've had trouble wrapping my mind around this idea in particular. Thanks in advance...

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Personally, I think patents and copyrights would still exist in AC, so this wouldn't be a problem. Some disagree.

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

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Personally, I think patents and copyrights would still exist in AC, so this wouldn't be a problem.

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Copyrights might exist, but I highly doubt patents would. (And I would hope that they wouldn't, since they are wholly unlibertarian.)

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

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Plus, Gold is subject to inflation/deflation just like fiat currency.

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Inflation under a gold standard wouldn't even begin to approach the kind of inflation we've seen since the introduction of the Fed.

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

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Personally, I think patents and copyrights would still exist in AC, so this wouldn't be a problem.

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Copyrights might exist, but I highly doubt patents would. (And I would hope that they wouldn't, since they are wholly unlibertarian.)

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Oh, I think the duration on them would be much, much shorter. Like maybe 5 years.

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

How could patents exist without a central gov to enforce them?

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

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How could patents exist without a central gov to enforce them?

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This is like saying "how could property exist without a central gov to enforce it."

Society agrees that X is A's property. B tries to use X without permission. Courts say no.

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

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Copyrights might exist, but I highly doubt patents would. (And I would hope that they wouldn't, since they are wholly unlibertarian.)

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Interesting, as the patent system played a big part in America progressing from the technological backwater it was to the world leader it is today.

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

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Copyrights might exist, but I highly doubt patents would. (And I would hope that they wouldn't, since they are wholly unlibertarian.)

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Interesting, as the patent system played a big part in America progressing from the technological backwater it was to the world leader it is today.

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When, exactly, was the U.S. a technological backwater?

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

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Copyrights might exist, but I highly doubt patents would. (And I would hope that they wouldn't, since they are wholly unlibertarian.)

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Interesting, as the patent system played a big part in America progressing from the technological backwater it was to the world leader it is today.

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When, exactly, was the U.S. a technological backwater?

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http://www.sonofthesouth.net/union-g...ns-indians.jpg

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

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Copyrights might exist, but I highly doubt patents would. (And I would hope that they wouldn't, since they are wholly unlibertarian.)

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Interesting, as the patent system played a big part in America progressing from the technological backwater it was to the world leader it is today.

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How do you know that patents had anything to do with it? Is there another economy the size of America's that doesn't have patent protection that you can compare it to over the same time period?

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

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Copyrights might exist, but I highly doubt patents would. (And I would hope that they wouldn't, since they are wholly unlibertarian.)

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Interesting, as the patent system played a big part in America progressing from the technological backwater it was to the world leader it is today.

[/ QUOTE ]

When, exactly, was the U.S. a technological backwater?

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http://www.sonofthesouth.net/union-g...ns-indians.jpg

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Funny, but the U.S. is a country, and that ain't it.

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

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How do you know that patents had anything to do with it? Is there another economy the size of America's that doesn't have patent protection that you can compare it to over the same time period?

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I am referring to colonial America in the late 18th century. At that time, Great Britain was considered the world leader in technology. Great Britain already had a patent system, but the British government failed to really enforce their laws.

Because the patent system made the conditions for inventions better in America than in Great Britain, it was a major factor in the technological shift from Britain to USA.

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

I can't see patents or copyright existing in any meaningful form in any anarchist society. I've been meaning to write a post about the similarities and differences between the elimination of IP and the elimination of property in general but haven't gotten around to it yet.

I agree that if your primary motive for innovation is profit, that IP is nec. for it to work. However, if you shift towards other motivations, IP laws start to hinder innovation strongly.

--

I'm also interested in hearing HMK or anyone expand upon the elimination of fiat currency as being the best first step to a market anarchist society.

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

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When, exactly, was the U.S. a technological backwater?

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The technological willingness of USA was sluggish at first. A big reason for that were the natural resources and land available. Conditions were very different in Great Britain, who - for instance - were the first to create the steam engine and the first to use the railway.

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Funny, but the U.S. is a country, and that ain't it.

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Funny, when I wrote America and you read USA. Not that it matters.

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

Can anyone give me a linky on a discussion on the reasons for this thread? I can't find anything about it either here or in ATF.

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

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Can anyone give me a linky on a discussion on the reasons for this thread? I can't find anything about it either here or in ATF.

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basically jman thinks that AC is a ultra-right-wing fringe movement that should have a maximum of one thread on the main page of politics.

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

Just a derail, do you identify with the circle A?

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

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Funny, when I wrote America and you read USA. Not that it matters.

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So your claim is that PATENTS and not European immigration were responsible for transforming Native American pre-USA society into today's hi-tech society?

That is a hilarious attempt at trying to cover your ass for your stupid picture post.

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

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hmk posted in another thread about how the "first step" is a return to the gold standard. Personally, I don't see what's so great about it. Gold has very little intrinsic value compared to its perceived value. Plus, Gold is subject to inflation/deflation just like fiat currency.

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I'm also interested in hearing HMK or anyone expand upon the elimination of fiat currency as being the best first step to a market anarchist society.

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If you want to break down government policy into "economic" and "social" issues, I would say that the "social" issues borderline on irrelevent compared with the former. Cut the economic tyranny, and you have just cut off the government's ability to fund social tyranny; in other words, cut their funding and they simply can't do anything bad.

As it stands, monetary expansion is the primary method of funding the government. Notice how Bush has blown more money than a drunken Paris Hilton with daddy's credit card, yet hasn't raised taxes? Where do you think the money came from? As it stands, the population is doped into thinking that the gold standard created te great depression and that central banks are necessary to prevent economic chaos. They do not understand how or even that this form of funding (which doesn't become apparent until well after it has taken place, unlike taxes which must gouge you before they are spent) actually takes place. Most people really don't get the fact that the Fed is allowed to and does print money out of thin air. Shift to a gold standard and the government has to risk a taxpayer rebellion every time they decide to go through with ridiculous goverment projects.

What good is addressing the War on Drugs or the prison systems or military reform if you're not going to stop the government from having the ability to implement them?

Gold is also a huge boon economically. It is incredibly close to the perfect form of money. It doesn't tarnish, it is very scarce and therefore portable, it has very few consumable purposes that would lead to its destruction, and rarely is it ever being found in nature. Civilization couldn't have been built as fast as it was without it. Fiat money creates economic catastrophes like inflation and irrational real estate explosions.

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

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If you want to break down government policy into "economic" and "social" issues, I would say that the "social" issues borderline on irrelevent compared with the former. Cut the economic tyranny, and you have just cut off the government's ability to fund social tyranny; in other words, cut their funding and they simply can't do anything bad.

As it stands, monetary expansion is the primary method of funding the government. Notice how Bush has blown more money than a drunken Paris Hilton with daddy's credit card, yet hasn't raised taxes? Where do you think the money came from? As it stands, the population is doped into thinking that the gold standard created te great depression and that central banks are necessary to prevent economic chaos. They do not understand how or even that this form of funding (which doesn't become apparent until well after it has taken place, unlike taxes which must gouge you before they are spent) actually takes place. Most people really don't get the fact that the Fed is allowed to and does print money out of thin air. Shift to a gold standard and the government has to risk a taxpayer rebellion every time they decide to go through with ridiculous goverment projects.

What good is addressing the War on Drugs or the prison systems or military reform if you're not going to stop the government from having the ability to implement them?

Gold is also a huge boon economically. It is incredibly close to the perfect form of money. It doesn't tarnish, it is very scarce and therefore portable, it has very few consumable purposes that would lead to its destruction, and rarely is it ever being found in nature. Civilization couldn't have been built as fast as it was without it. Fiat money creates economic catastrophes like inflation and irrational real estate explosions.

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good post

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

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Great Britain was considered the world leader in technology. Great Britain already had a patent system, but the British government failed to really enforce their laws.

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So what you are saying is that even without enforced patents innovation still existed? Hmmmmm. Interesting.

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Because the patent system made the conditions for inventions better in America than in Great Britain

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You mean people respond to incentives? Hmmmmmm.

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

AC to me seems a bit like communism, great in theory, terrible in practice. I have trouble imagining a situation where AC wouldn't turn into warlordism very quickly, as seems to happen everytime no strong central government exists in a region.

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

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AC to me seems a bit like communism, great in theory, terrible in practice. I have trouble imagining a situation where AC wouldn't turn into warlordism very quickly, as seems to happen everytime no strong central government exists in a region.

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I tend to agree with this in a large way. My problem with ACism is that a precondition seems to be a society which respects individual rights enough to avoid the drift towards warlordism. However, if there is that much respect for individual rights present, than a minarchist government with very limited powers should also be feasible and better suited to protect those at the very bottom of society. And, IMO, would be closer to an ideal state for civilized mankind.

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

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AC to me seems a bit like communism, great in theory, terrible in practice. I have trouble imagining a situation where AC wouldn't turn into warlordism very quickly, as seems to happen everytime no strong central government exists in a region.


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If you have a hard time believing how AC would be feasible, just imagine the federal government was abandoned. You would then have 52 states competing for tax payers money, and I believe this competition would ameliorate much of the negative effects of democratic states. The major problem with governments is that they have a monopoly over territory and the people that live within them. They can basically do what they want because the costs of leaving are so high.

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

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AC to me seems a bit like communism, great in theory, terrible in practice. I have trouble imagining a situation where AC wouldn't turn into warlordism very quickly, as seems to happen everytime no strong central government exists in a region.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you have a hard time believing how AC would be feasible, just imagine the federal government was abandoned. You would then have 52 states competing for tax payers money, and I believe this competition would ameliorate much of the negative effects of democratic states. The major problem with governments is that they have a monopoly over territory and the people that live within them. They can basically do what they want because the costs of leaving are so high.

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Very true. I'm considering NH after a job change just for the state/local govts there ... too bad I can't cast off the fed govt's intrusions as well.

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

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If you have a hard time believing how AC would be feasible, just imagine the federal government was abandoned. You would then have 52 states competing for tax payers money.

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This is basically the situation in the current European Union. Tax regimes etc. aren't standardized and people have the right to move to whatever country they want (except in Eastern EU, but they will soon have as well).

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

6 threads related to alternative forms of society (AC/AS) are locked and all traffic moved here ... 3 of the threads locked had over 145 posts ... this thread has 29 total.

Can we admit that having one thread on this subject is a bit restricting and preventing posters from free discussion as was already naturally occurring without this consolidation?

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

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This is basically the situation in the current European Union. Tax regimes etc. aren't standardized and people have the right to move to whatever country they want (except in Eastern EU, but they will soon have as well).



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Thats what I was thinking about. How is that working out for them? I dont read much about EU. It seems like the Euro was a move away from a free market money system, but im not familiar with who controls that either. Anyone have any info?

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

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If you have a hard time believing how AC would be feasible, just imagine the federal government was abandoned. You would then have 52 states competing for tax payers money.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is basically the situation in the current European Union. Tax regimes etc. aren't standardized and people have the right to move to whatever country they want (except in Eastern EU, but they will soon have as well).

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An EU-style confederacy implemented in the US in lieu of the federal government would be frickin' awesome. Huge leap forward.

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

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If you have a hard time believing how AC would be feasible, just imagine the federal government was abandoned. You would then have 52 states competing for tax payers money.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is basically the situation in the current European Union. Tax regimes etc. aren't standardized and people have the right to move to whatever country they want (except in Eastern EU, but they will soon have as well).

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An EU-style confederacy implemented in the US in lieu of the federal government would be frickin' awesome. Huge leap forward.

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In other news: the EU is going towards US style federal government.

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

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[ QUOTE ]
This is basically the situation in the current European Union. Tax regimes etc. aren't standardized and people have the right to move to whatever country they want (except in Eastern EU, but they will soon have as well).



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Thats what I was thinking about. How is that working out for them? I dont read much about EU. It seems like the Euro was a move away from a free market money system, but im not familiar with who controls that either. Anyone have any info?

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The effects so far has been that the poorest countries have very business friendly politics wrt to corporate tax etc. etc.. However, it is not enough to make those countries more attractive for business than most of the western countries. So the migration stream goes from low-tax to high-tax countries since that's where you find the jobs. But it doesn't really prove anything since the countries are so totally different in every way, so level of taxation is only one factor. It doesn't seem to work much in the sense of countries learning from eachother, but it seems to have had an eye opener effect on the governments in some countries that they have to improve in order to manage to maintain their population. The numbers are not well documented since they keep citizenship, but Poland seems to have lost somewhere between 5 and 10% of their population during the last few years. Also Ireland's population has risen somewhere between 10 and 20% due to immigration, so the migration streams are relatively large. The difference in offered quality of life, chance to find job etc. is so different between countries that you can't really assign the migration streams for the next at least 10 years as a result of which government that has the most attractive policy for people currently.

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

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If you have a hard time believing how AC would be feasible, just imagine the federal government was abandoned. You would then have 52 states competing for tax payers money.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is basically the situation in the current European Union. Tax regimes etc. aren't standardized and people have the right to move to whatever country they want (except in Eastern EU, but they will soon have as well).

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That would basically be the situation here if the federal government didn't ignore the Constitution. The E.U. is somewhat similar to what the U.S. was 200 years ago. I suspect it will take them a bit longer to get to where we are due to the language barriers though. Then again, the people there appreciate statism a lot more, so it may go faster.

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

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6 threads related to alternative forms of society (AC/AS) are locked and all traffic moved here ... 3 of the threads locked had over 145 posts ... this thread has 29 total.

Can we admit that having one thread on this subject is a bit restricting and preventing posters from free discussion as was already naturally occurring without this consolidation?

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http://www.btlonline.org/bush-mission-accomplished.jpg

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is the official thread for debate and dicussion of Anarcho-Capitalism, and the necessity or lack thereof of a governing state.

Links to Former Anarcho-Capitalist, and discussion of "statism" Threads:

How Would an Acist suggest I act?

Somali Freedom Fighters

ACers on an Island

pvn would be proud.

[/ QUOTE ]

Vote please:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...age=0&vc=1

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

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6 threads related to alternative forms of society (AC/AS) are locked and all traffic moved here ... 3 of the threads locked had over 145 posts ... this thread has 29 total.

Can we admit that having one thread on this subject is a bit restricting and preventing posters from free discussion as was already naturally occurring without this consolidation?

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Even the mods no that, they just don't care. They don't like AC or the posters. They're to good at pointing out their horrible moderation.

Re: *The Official Anarcho-Capitalism Debate and Discussion Thread. 4/2
 

Haven't been around politics forum much since regime change, but I just checked it out, and this really sucks balls.