AceAce at Commerce 4/8 (with poll!)
 

The game is loose, routinely 7-8 to the flop for 3-4 bets each, zzz. Additional information: Everyone is loose passive except Old Nitty Guy and Hero. Game is played with $1 meaning a ridiculous amount of chips that make people chase even harder.

Commerce 4/8 Hold'em <font color="blue">(9 handed)</font>

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, 2 calls, <font color="red">Old Nitty Guy raises</font>, <font color="red">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, 3 calls, <font color="red">Old Nitty Guy Caps</font> , 4 calls.

Flop: (19 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="red">Old Nitty Guy Bets</font>, Hero...
<font color="white"> .</font> <font color="red"> </font>

Re: AceAce at Commerce 4/8 (with poll!)
 

raisy daisy

Re: AceAce at Commerce 4/8 (with poll!)
 

call, raise the turn.

otherwise you're prob going to lose this hand

Re: AceAce at Commerce 4/8 (with poll!)
 

lol?

Re: AceAce at Commerce 4/8 (with poll!)
 

SSHE p 163 KK on a multiway capped pot.

anyone with a gutshot or bottom pair is getting correct odds to call a flop raise.

Re: AceAce at Commerce 4/8 (with poll!)
 

[ QUOTE ]
SSHE p 163 KK on a multiway capped pot.

anyone with a gutshot or bottom pair is getting correct odds to call a flop raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Plan when you get 3bet on the turn instead of the flop?

Re: AceAce at Commerce 4/8 (with poll!)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SSHE p 163 KK on a multiway capped pot.

anyone with a gutshot or bottom pair is getting correct odds to call a flop raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Plan when you get 3bet on the turn instead of the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

fold. nitty is not 3 betting KK on the turn.

i doubt this will happen though. nitty prob isnt capping QQ or JJ PF

Re: AceAce at Commerce 4/8 (with poll!)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SSHE p 163 KK on a multiway capped pot.

anyone with a gutshot or bottom pair is getting correct odds to call a flop raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Plan when you get 3bet on the turn instead of the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

fold. nitty is not 3 betting KK on the turn.

i doubt this will happen though. nitty prob isnt capping QQ or JJ PF

[/ QUOTE ]

Nitty is also very capable of checking the turn.

Re: AceAce at Commerce 4/8 (with poll!)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SSHE p 163 KK on a multiway capped pot.

anyone with a gutshot or bottom pair is getting correct odds to call a flop raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Plan when you get 3bet on the turn instead of the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

fold. nitty is not 3 betting KK on the turn.

i doubt this will happen though. nitty prob isnt capping QQ or JJ PF

[/ QUOTE ]

Nitty is also very capable of checking the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

why would he when no one shows any strength?

i honestly have never seen anyone nitty enough to not bet KK on the turn with no ace on board. the only possible turn check card would be a club, and that isnt a particularly big deal because we have a nut redraw and a flush draw wasnt going anywhere on the flop anyways.

Re: AceAce at Commerce 4/8 (with poll!)
 

Just try and build a big pot.

Raise, call a threebet. Raise the turn, call it down after you get raised later on in the hand. Moan about how aces never win for you. Next hand.

Re: AceAce at Commerce 4/8 (with poll!)
 

I'm with Chino here. The pot is large now and will likely be gargantuan by the river. Raising makes money, but inducing a weak turn bet from our right and protecting our equity makes more.

Re: AceAce at Commerce 4/8 (with poll!)
 

I personally do not like aces in limit hold'em because in my statistics I win a lot of small or medium pots with the Bullets but I loose a lot of big pots with it because it is so hard to fold aces.

If I take a look at this hand I would say that the limpers have suited connectors, connectors or a low pair. The raise of the old Nitty Guy shows strenth and due to the fact that you want to play your Bullets against as few opponents as possible your reraise is absolutly correct.
The call of the Limpers indicates small pairs with the cap of the original raiser he shows the has a premium Hand (AA, KK,QQ,JJ, AK AQ maybe suited-&gt; the aces and AK AQ are less likly because you have pocket Aces). The Call of the other players means nothing because they have very good pott odds.
The checks of the 3 original limpers could means weaknes and they are afraid of the Old Nitty guy and you. The bet of old Nitty guy could be a continuation bet or show a made Hand. I would reraise and if one of the limpers or the old guy 3-bets, you should fold because you are likly beaten by a Set.
I know that folding aces with no overcard is very difficult but sometimes aces are beaten. If you think knowing the hand of your opponent is worth paying 30 bucks you should call down the hand.

Maybe you can tell me what the people showed in the end.

Greetings from Germany

Re: AceAce at Commerce 4/8 (with poll!)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I personally do not like aces in limit hold'em because in my statistics I win a lot of small or medium pots with the Bullets but I loose a lot of big pots with it because it is so hard to fold aces.

If I take a look at this hand I would say that the limpers have suited connectors, connectors or a low pair. The raise of the old Nitty Guy shows strenth and due to the fact that you want to play your Bullets against as few opponents as possible your reraise is absolutly correct.
The call of the Limpers indicates small pairs with the cap of the original raiser he shows the has a premium Hand (AA, KK,QQ,JJ, AK AQ maybe suited-&gt; the aces and AK AQ are less likly because you have pocket Aces). The Call of the other players means nothing because they have very good pott odds.
The checks of the 3 original limpers could means weaknes and they are afraid of the Old Nitty guy and you. The bet of old Nitty guy could be a continuation bet or show a made Hand. I would reraise and if one of the limpers or the old guy 3-bets, you should fold because you are likly beaten by a Set.
I know that folding aces with no overcard is very difficult but sometimes aces are beaten. If you think knowing the hand of your opponent is worth paying 30 bucks you should call down the hand.

Maybe you can tell me what the people showed in the end.

Greetings from Germany

[/ QUOTE ]

In order of probability, a three bet on the flop from anyone but the PFR means:

Two pair (QJ specifically)
Flush draw
Set

A threebet by teh PFR means (in order of probability)

KK
The other AA
a set

i dont really think this is debatable.

Re: AceAce at Commerce 4/8 (with poll!)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would reraise and if one of the limpers or the old guy 3-bets, you should fold because you are likly beaten by a Set.


[/ QUOTE ]

Even if Old Nitty Guy shows you his set hand of QQ or JJ before 3betting you can't fold; you'll be getting at least 24:1 which is more than what you need to call for your two outer.

Gmytwocents,whichalsohappenstobemywinrateperhourG

Re: AceAce at Commerce 4/8 (with poll!)
 

According to the poll, most people like a raise now. The main points to consider here is the value we gain by waiting for the turn to raise and have anyone with a 5 outs or less make an -EV decision. I don't think we miss too many bets by not raising the flop as people aren't going to fold to two bets on the turn with a mountain of blue chips in the middle. Another point to consider is what we gain by waiting to see what happens with the turn card. The flop is pretty drawy and if a straight or flush card were to come, we could play accordingly. Since we have the A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], that's less reason to just call the flop. If we held something like A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], we can safely fold if the action goes bet/raise to us on a [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] turn. Same if the turn was a King or a Ten.

I decided to call the flop as did everyone else.

Turn: (12 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(5 Players)</font>

2 checks, <font color="red">Old Nitty Guy bets</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises</font>, 2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, Old Nitty Guy calls.


River: (20 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 Players)</font>

3 checks, <font color="red">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, <font color="red">MP1 raises</font>, Old Nitty Guy calls, Hero...?

The person who checkraised seems loose passive. The pot is massive, but the checkraise means I'm beat like all the time.
<font color="white">. </font>

Re: AceAce at Commerce 4/8 (with poll!)
 

sorry misread the post, it said "went with everyone else" so i thought you raised the flop.

i wouldnt call the river CR. this is never a bluff as you already repped extreme strength with the turn raise.

you arent good here even 5% of the time.

Re: AceAce at Commerce 4/8 (with poll!)
 

This is an obvious call.

The pot is huge and a raise is offering those behind you 10 to 1 to call. This does not protect your hand. Any 4 out draw has an easy and profitable call while any 3 out draw can probably call profitably given the large number of opponents around to pay them off if they hit.

The pot is already huge and you need to focus on winning the whole pot not making it microscopically larger. You best play is to call and reraise the turn. You should be able to cut to odds enough to give the longer shot draws an unprofitable call. If it is checked to you this is tough luck, but if you raise now you will fold no one and the pot will be so large most (if not all) of your opponents will correctly call to the river.

Just call.

Re: AceAce at Commerce 4/8 (with poll!)
 

This kind of situation happens often in the hyperloose games. Since old nitty guy called, I am making this hopeless looking crying calling too. If he had a set he would have 3-bet the turn. Sometimes that raise by MP1 on the river is just a donkey play. Puke and call.

Re: AceAce at Commerce 4/8 (with poll!)
 

fold to a 3-bet.

Re: AceAce at Commerce 4/8 (with poll!)
 

[ QUOTE ]
3 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, MP1 raises, Old Nitty Guy calls, Hero...?


[/ QUOTE ]

Please see the furcoat dilemma...

http://www.fekali.com/izmet/2000/pok...rcoat-dilemma/

Re: AceAce at Commerce 4/8 (with poll!)
 

thankfully this never comes up for me online cuz my games arent this soft (unfortunately rather) fwiw here id always call to raise a blank turn, I think we can fold to a 3bet on the turn from the nitty old guy if our read is legit, and we really can not protect our hand whatsoever on the flop (id just call a club turn though, not sure if thats right I dont mind encouraging loose calls/ chases from spades and the spades cut into our opponents equity/ outs but Im guessing Id still like to fold out 4-5 outters on the turn so maybe I should still raise). Can anyone answer that for me definitively?

I fold this river online always when MP raises after BB's call but would call if BB had folded since AQ KQ or some random bluff will occur aroudn 5% of the time id imagine, but the bluff factor goes out the window after bb's call from anyone who thinks or plays sanely. Getting like 26:1 on the call, u can probably make a crying call live without more info on ur opponent, its likely only a very small mistake and helps u avoid life tilt that one time in a blue moon AA is good here.

Sidenote: If this pot was HU with just the nitty guy in a capped pot I wouldnt raise at any point with KK or AA on this board against his lead.