Somali Freedom Fighters
 

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/25/wo...mp;oref=slogin

Beyond clan rivalry and Islamic fervor, an entirely different motive is helping fuel the chaos in Somalia: profit.

A whole class of opportunists — from squatter landlords to teenage gunmen for hire to vendors of out-of-date baby formula — have been feeding off the anarchy in Somalia for so long that they refuse to let go.

....

Perhaps some of our resident ACists will go join the fight for this noble cause.


***Edit/Jman220: Please post all further discussion of this topic HERE

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

Perhaps now we can put to rest the following argument made by Borodog: "There's precious little capitalism in the Thrid World, and hence there can be no anarchocapitalism, including Somalia. Asserting that Somalia is anarchocapitalistic is simply a canard."

There is capitalism in Somalia, as this article clearly indicates. Moreover, even if there were not capitalism and respect for property rights in Somalia, that would also be an argument against anarchocapitalism. Repsect for property cannot just arise out of thin air in an anarchist society. Government is necessary to culivate and protect the idea of property rights.

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

I knew this would be posted. =P

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

[ QUOTE ]
There is capitalism in Somalia, as this article clearly indicates. Moreover, even if there were not capitalism and respect for property rights in Somalia, that would also be an argument against anarchocapitalism. Repsect for property cannot just arise out of thin air in an anarchist society. Government is necessary to culivate and protect the idea of property rights.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you have capitalism without the "idea of property rights"?

There's no professional hockey in Somalia. Professional hockey only exists where there is government. Therefore, government is necessary to cultivate and protect the idea of professional hockey. QED.

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

[ QUOTE ]
Repsect for property cannot just arise out of thin air in an anarchist society.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true. Anarchy would/will only "work" (i.e. result in a stable environment where the rights it seeks to defend are in fact defended) when property rights and the feasibility of anarchocapitalism are accepted.

I would say that this would be possible if the majority accepted the core beliefs of AC and accepted the risk of trying to implement them. The ACists will avoid the word "majority" like the plague, I am sure, and have said things like "widely accepted", but I'm not sure I've ever really understood the difference.

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

[ QUOTE ]
Government is necessary to culivate and protect the idea of property rights.

[/ QUOTE ]


And what about respecting and protecting property rights; does 'the government' have a role in that?

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Repsect for property cannot just arise out of thin air in an anarchist society.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true. Anarchy would/will only "work" (i.e. result in a stable environment where the rights it seeks to defend are in fact defended) when property rights and the feasibility of anarchocapitalism are accepted.

I would say that this would be possible if the majority accepted the core beliefs of AC and accepted the risk of trying to implement them. The ACists will avoid the word "majority" like the plague, I am sure, and have said things like "widely accepted", but I'm not sure I've ever really understood the difference.

[/ QUOTE ]


When people believe in the virtue of the biggest mafia, then surely one will arise.

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

[ QUOTE ]

How can you have capitalism without the "idea of property rights"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because capitalism is just the absence of regulation

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

How can you have capitalism without the "idea of property rights"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because capitalism is just the absence of regulation

[/ QUOTE ]

No it isn't.

A does not equal B. Not hard to really understand.

A: "Men who were able to muster private armies, often former military officers, seized the biggest prizes: abandoned government property, like ports and airfields, which could generate as much as $40,000 a day. They became the warlords. Many trafficked in guns and drugs and taxed their fellow Somalis."

B: "Capitalism generally refers to an economic system in which the means of production are mostly privately[1] owned and operated for profit, and in which distribution, production and pricing of goods and services are determined in a largely free market. It is usually considered to involve the right of individuals and groups of individuals acting as "legal persons" or corporations to trade capital goods, labor, land and money."

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

[ QUOTE ]
Government is necessary to culivate and protect the idea of property rights.


[/ QUOTE ]

So since government is made of people, where do these people get the idea for cultivating and protecting property rights?

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

[ QUOTE ]
When people believe in the virtue of the biggest mafia, then surely one will arise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if you're trying to agree with me or disagree with me or correct something I said. Can you expand, please?

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

How can you have capitalism without the "idea of property rights"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because capitalism is just the absence of regulation

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying you need a coercive monopoly regulatory body in order to have "the idea of property rights"?

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

Why do you guys even bother?

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you guys even bother?

[/ QUOTE ]

The only hope of getting AC in place is to convince others that it's right. If you don't get enough people on board, they'll just make a new government at the first opportunity.

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why do you guys even bother?

[/ QUOTE ]

The only hope of getting AC in place is to convince others that it's right. If you don't get enough people on board, they'll just make a new government at the first opportunity.

[/ QUOTE ]
There's no need to convince everyone.

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why do you guys even bother?

[/ QUOTE ]

The only hope of getting AC in place is to convince others that it's right. If you don't get enough people on board, they'll just make a new government at the first opportunity.

[/ QUOTE ]
There's no need to convince everyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

To paraphrase "Thank you for Smoking".

"I'm not trying to convince you, I'm trying to convince them."

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

Don't you get it? Somalia is not AC because it had a government at one point that did stuff with which I disagree. So now every problem Somalia has is because of the government that used to be there, duh.

Never mind the mantra "if something is a problem, how can the absence of it not be an improvement." That's clearly not applicable here.

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

[ QUOTE ]
Don't you get it? Somalia is not AC because it had a government at one point that did stuff with which I disagree. So now every problem Somalia has is because of the government that used to be there, duh.

Never mind the mantra "if something is a problem, how can the absence of it not be an improvement." That's clearly not applicable here.

[/ QUOTE ]
A knife in my chest would be a problem. Someone pulling that knife out of my chest is not much of an improvement.

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

[ QUOTE ]
Don't you get it? Somalia is not AC because it had a government at one point that did stuff with which I disagree. So now every problem Somalia has is because of the government that used to be there, duh.

Never mind the mantra "if something is a problem, how can the absence of it not be an improvement." That's clearly not applicable here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I got shot in the head with a hollowpoint. The bullet remvoed itself. Obviously, now that the bullet is gone, I am as good as new.

EDIT: MY PONY TOO SLOW

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

[ QUOTE ]
A knife in my chest would be a problem. Someone pulling that knife out of my chest is not much of an improvement.

[/ QUOTE ]

But according to you guys the knife is at least a bit into the chest also in i.e. the US. Does your above statement mean that you think that the damages from the knife can't be healed or that it needs much longer time than in current Somalia? Today is a combination of actions yesterday and actions today and it is possible to some extent to separate what is caused by what, and I am 99,9% convinced that some of the large problems in today's Somalia are not a result of any previous government, because some things have developed so clearly in the opposite direction than the direction government took.

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A knife in my chest would be a problem. Someone pulling that knife out of my chest is not much of an improvement.

[/ QUOTE ]

But according to you guys the knife is at least a bit into the chest also in i.e. the US. Does your above statement mean that you think that the damages from the knife can't be healed or that it needs much longer time than in current Somalia? Today is a combination of actions yesterday and actions today and it is possible to some extent to separate what is caused by what, and I am 99,9% convinced that some of the large problems in today's Somalia are not a result of any previous government, because some things have developed so clearly in the opposite direction that the direction government took.

[/ QUOTE ]

Short answer: government may be bad, but sudden, violent collapse of it isn't going to turn the place into utopia overnight.

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

[ QUOTE ]
Short answer: government may be bad, but sudden, violent collapse of it isn't going to turn the place into utopia overnight.

[/ QUOTE ]

So how you want to do it, have control of government and then dismantle it slowly or just dismantle and go through a bad period?

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Short answer: government may be bad, but sudden, violent collapse of it isn't going to turn the place into utopia overnight.

[/ QUOTE ]

So how you want to do it, have control of government and then dismantle it slowly or just dismantle and go through a bad period?

[/ QUOTE ]

This depends a LOT on the population and its values.

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

[ QUOTE ]
This depends a LOT on the population and its values.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying that if the "population's values" (whatever that means, I thought that individuals had values and they were allowed to differ) include valuing the government, then AC freedom fighters should tear down the government because the people are wrong?

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This depends a LOT on the population and its values.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying that if the "population's values" (whatever that means, I thought that individuals had values and they were allowed to differ) include valuing the government, then AC freedom fighters should tear down the government because the people are wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends. Are they using force to compel others to participate? If you want "government" and keep it to yourselves, then it shouldn't be torn down by outsiders.

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't you get it? Somalia is not AC because it had a government at one point that did stuff with which I disagree. So now every problem Somalia has is because of the government that used to be there, duh.

Never mind the mantra "if something is a problem, how can the absence of it not be an improvement." That's clearly not applicable here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I got shot in the head with a hollowpoint. The bullet remvoed itself. Obviously, now that the bullet is gone, I am as good as new.

EDIT: MY PONY TOO SLOW

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course you recognize the saying as your own, right?

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't you get it? Somalia is not AC because it had a government at one point that did stuff with which I disagree. So now every problem Somalia has is because of the government that used to be there, duh.

Never mind the mantra "if something is a problem, how can the absence of it not be an improvement." That's clearly not applicable here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I got shot in the head with a hollowpoint. The bullet remvoed itself. Obviously, now that the bullet is gone, I am as good as new.

EDIT: MY PONY TOO SLOW

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course you recognize the saying as your own, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Cite?

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

[ QUOTE ]
Depends. Are they using force to compel others to participate? If you want "government" and keep it to yourselves, then it shouldn't be torn down by outsiders.

[/ QUOTE ]
Excellent point of clarification. ACists don't care if you want join with a bunch of other people (in an agreement you call "government"), pool your resources, and pay people to "regulate" your own behavior. What ACists don't like is the fact that your organization places a gun to their head and demands ~50% of the fruits of their labor, whether they want to be involved or not.

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

[ QUOTE ]
Depends. Are they using force to compel others to participate? If you want "government" and keep it to yourselves, then it shouldn't be torn down by outsiders.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, but should it be torn down by outsiders when the government doesn't "keep it to themselves" i.e., should ACists in the US try to take the US government down on a moral basis?

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

Troll post deleted by jman220. One Day Ban Issued.

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

To me it seems it's less about "taking it down" than defending oneself against its transgressions, if that is feasible.

If 50 million people became convinced of the illegitimacy of the state, organized, and stopped paying taxes, it would be more than the US government could deal with forcefully. If 200 million stopped paying, it seems like it couldn't be much longer before the government as an entity ceased to exist. This could all occur very nonviolently.

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

[ QUOTE ]
This could all occur very nonviolently.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I agree. In fact I don't even think that the ACists would need to refrain from paying taxes and defend themselves with violence. If ACism becomes widespread enough they can simply win elections on that basis and dismantle the government from the inside. I don't understand this attitude of "We will get our AC world when we get enough people on board" combined with "Majority rule is evil!" What the heck does "enough people" mean? 23%? 82% 45,974,763? Who knows? But definitely not 50% though! That's evil!

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

In the case of ACism, it's majority anti-rule they are going for, not majority rule.

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

[ QUOTE ]
If ACism becomes widespread enough they can simply win elections on that basis and dismantle the government from the inside.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wonder if the US system could withstand such a dismantling. Would the power apparatus allow such a thing to happen? Do you think that at some point you'd start to see banning of libertarian political parties for "security" reasons or even on the extreme end, a military coup if things went "too far"? I think it's a bit frightening to imagine how the wolf might act when you back it into a corner.

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

[ QUOTE ]
In the case of ACism, it's majority anti-rule they are going for, not majority rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes no sense. The demand to have no government that interferes with non-voluntary participants is a "rule". Their world will still need to operate under rules like "You can't steal my property"; the difference is that there will be no central authority to make appeals to and to violently enforce results.

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

[ QUOTE ]

This makes no sense. The demand to have no government that interferes with non-voluntary participants is a "rule". Their world will still need to operate under rules like "You can't steal my property"; the difference is that there will be no central authority to make appeals to and to violently enforce results.

[/ QUOTE ]

Without a central authority, there can be no "rule". All you have is values that are defended on an individual or voluntary group basis. No one is forcing you to believe in private property rights. But I do, and if you try to steal my property, I will shoot you. It seems like you are using "rule" in a negative way, which doesn't make sense to me.

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

[ QUOTE ]
No one is forcing you to believe in private property rights. But I do, and if you try to steal my property, I will shoot you.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know what forcing means, right?

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

Yes. I am not forcing you to do anything, except NOT steal from me. You can't "force" a negative.

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

This has been talked about before I think. If you want to you can look at AC as every person being his/her own individual state. So "rules" still exist in a very theoretical sense, but only as individuals "ruling" over themselves.

Re: Somali Freedom Fighters
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes. I am not forcing you to do anything, except NOT steal from me. You can't "force" a negative.

[/ QUOTE ]

Threatening to kill someone who does not believe in your value system is force. I'm sorry, it just is.