HU 5/10 fairly common spot from a student
 

Hi Everyone,

Help me coach. This is a hand from a student. I think he played it well, and has a tough decision on the turn. Did he, and is it tough?

Villain is probably typical of the winners at 5/10 HU, albeit a little less aggressive pre-flop than is typical. He 3-bets pre with good hands (Broadway, big pairs, A8o I saw once), but I haven't seen him turn over anything really funky (or even semi-funky like 65s) after 3-betting pre. He doesn't seem to try to make "big" calls, especially vs. Hero, who is on the conservative side, and who I'd guess Villain views as a little weak-tight. Post-flop, Villain is about as aggressive as normal. Again, how do you like Hero's play (especially the turn bet), what do you do when Villain pushes, and how easy a decision is that?

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $5/$10 Blinds - 2 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

<font color="black">Hero (BB): $1500.50</font>
SB: $8283

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> Hero is dealt 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB raises to $30</font>, Hero calls $20

<font color="black">Flop:</font> ($60) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">SB bets $60</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $180</font>, SB calls $120

<font color="black">Turn:</font> ($420) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $310</font>, SB Raises to 1300 (2030 in the pot, 990 more to Hero to call all-in)

Re: HU 5/10 fairly common spot from a student
 

Sometimes people make hands even HU. I would check the turn for sure. Maybe call or maybe fold, but I'd never bet. Draws or not that large a part of his range to merit betting. Unless for some reason you think betting will INDUCE bluffs. But if that's the case, then I dont think your description of the opponent is correct.

The smooth call, c/r flop line is fine, but I'd usually prefer reraising pre- and then just betting the flop for a similar, but safer result.

Re: HU 5/10 fairly common spot from a student
 

if villian pushes turn it seems like a pretty easy fold. i mean, hero is repping a Q and villian might not believe him, but it doesn't sound like he's ready to push here as a bluff. as for the hand in general i like it. tough to comment on heads-up play, despite your good description.

Re: HU 5/10 fairly common spot from a student
 

i hate the postflop line unless you have an image that will induce rebluffs or semibluffs or get him to stack off with 66. hero does NOT have that image, far from it, so this hand should play relatively straight up, even heads up.

in which case when you DO take the line your student did, he can fold to the turn push.

Re: HU 5/10 fairly common spot from a student
 

I would tell him to leave the table becasue it looks like he is getting demolished and im sure his image and the momentum are against him(could be wrong, and he sat down vs a huge stack). As for the hand, i dont see how you can call without a sick read, this is really a be at the table thing. I think turn bet is fine given hero raised flop, but now its time to fold.

Re: HU 5/10 fairly common spot from a student
 

what is the "relatively straight up play"? c/c flop, c/f turn?

Re: HU 5/10 fairly common spot from a student
 

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what is the "relatively straight up play"? c/c flop, c/f turn?

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That was going to be my question. I would think it's more like c/r flop, check turn and cry.

Re: HU 5/10 fairly common spot from a student
 

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what is the "relatively straight up play"? c/c flop, c/f turn?

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That was going to be my question. I would think it's more like c/r flop, check turn and cry.

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wouldnt that make it a relatively bad play?

i dont see anything wrong with check call, check...

Re: HU 5/10 fairly common spot from a student
 

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what is the "relatively straight up play"? c/c flop, c/f turn?

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by relatively straight up i meant that he likely has the hand he's representing, because he should be afraid of your line and he's not.

you could c/c flop, c/c turn, c/c flop, lead turn, c/c flop, c/f turn, lead flop, etc., whatever.

Re: HU 5/10 fairly common spot from a student
 

Thanks for the replies so far. Here are some of my thoughts:

KRANTZ, your point about Hero's weak-tight image limiting his action, thus rendering some 2p2 standard lines sub-optimal, is a good one IMO, and mirrors some of the general comments I have for this player. However, whether we're TAG, LAG, or weak-tight, I think that we have to be checkraising this flop as a default, in a HU match. Our hand is pretty big yet quite vulnerable, and I think that the hand plays out more +EV for us if we take an aggressive stance on the flop, which could mean leading the flop as well.

Whatever specific line we choose here, I think our thought process should be, "I have a strong hand right now, and I'm going to look to get some money in the pot. My hand is good enough that I don't have to be afraid of building the pot somewhat through aggressive action." I think that ideally, you want some decent money to go in on the flop, and not very much to go in on a lot of turn cards. I think playing aggressively on the flop, even OOP, is the best way to accomplish that.

IMO check-calling a normal (non-maniacal) player's flop bet plays right into your opponent's hands. You will generally see a bet, and if we call and check the turn, our opponent will realize that we either have a medium strength holding that will not be comfortable facing a bet, or that we are using the not-very-common (these days) line of c/c, check turn slowplay. In other words, our opponent should read us for the kind of hand we have, and make our lives tough.

If we c/r the flop, and follow it up with a bet on a lot of turns, we will force our opponents to make a much ballsier play if they want to test us, and at the same time, we'll avoid giving a free card with a hand that's still very often ahead (on any given turn card), but which is vulnerable to many cards.

Another thing I was considering is that when the Villain pushes the turn, that really tends to be trips+, or a hand that we really want to get in against. Here's my logic: better hands are overpairs, trip Qs, and boats. Obviously, these are all pretty unlikely holdings in the general sense: it's HU, those are just a few combinations, and it makes no sense to constantly fear the nuts. Worse hands are draws and smaller pairs. 77 could push in this spot if he decides he's not folding, and the board is getting progressively scarier, so he's better off getting his money in now. Any flush draw that picked up an additional draw on the turn would be a good candidate for a regular to push; in fact, IMO pushing would be by far the standard line there with ATd, T8d, etc. We have the 9d, which limits those combos somewhat.

BUT, with Jdxd, I think very few competent players would push, given the likelihood of blowing out hands that are now drawing super-thin. For that reason, I basically rule out a Jack in my opponent's hand when he pushes. That brings me back to the "he has a very big hand or a bluff" position, and I think if that's the range you put him on, you have to call, getting 2:1. What do you all think about this?

I tinkered with the hand history a little, for the sake of the discussion. In the actual hand, Hero bet the turn, and Villain folded, which I think will happen quite often, since Hero is usually still ahead at that point.

Re: HU 5/10 fairly common spot from a student
 

Your asking yourself to get put in a really nasty spot by pushing this hand this hard out of position. Just check/call the flop and then lead on a favorable turn, or if you think he's really aggressive and will double-barrel most of the time, go for a turn check/raise..

Re: HU 5/10 fairly common spot from a student
 

i know who hero is, image is so important in this spot
but generally its a fold

Re: HU 5/10 fairly common spot from a student
 

Yeh I think this is a fold. I mean your hoping he's semi-bluffing here, but I dont think he is that often given the great amount of strength you've shown.

Re: HU 5/10 fairly common spot from a student
 

how come no one has said rr pf???? as played looks like he gotta fold now..betting turn is bad this is a very easy spot to be bluffed or is already murdered...

Re: HU 5/10 fairly common spot from a student
 

Three quick other comments:
1. I reraise preflop ALWAYS. literally 100%. I think you're missing out alot by just calling.
2. I checkraise air on this board alot.
3. The ABC way to play this GIVEN THE PREFLOP CALL, is to check call and revaluate turn; lead, check call, or check raise the turn are all suitable depending on opponent and what turns. IF you fold this hand, it will be on the river.

Re: HU 5/10 fairly common spot from a student
 

Easy raise PF increases EV and makes the hand a lot easier.
As played I like the flop c/r but I would bet less on the turn.
I don't think Villain has air often enough for us to make the call worthwile. Either we're drawing dead or have 2outs. The times he bluffs he will have a flushdraw or might have a FD+Jack-Kombo
I think this is a very bad spot to call. Our hand looks like a monster and he needs to be very very optimistically thinking we fold often enough to make this a good push.

As played, fold.. but just avoid the Situation by raising pf.

Re: HU 5/10 fairly common spot from a student
 

i think a number of the same problems will occur in a reraised pot (though villain's range will be tighter and the dynamics of reraised pots will come into play).

if hero reraises preflop and gets to the turn, the flop action will probably go bet/call. the pot is still going to be about 400 or so and hero has the same decision.

Re: HU 5/10 fairly common spot from a student
 

without an agressive image y is he check raising this flop, and i probably re raise a huge percentage of the time. Since he didnt and he didnt put much in the pot preflop he can fold i think on the turn.

Re: HU 5/10 fairly common spot from a student
 

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Three quick other comments:
1. I reraise preflop ALWAYS. literally 100%. I think you're missing out alot by just calling.
2. I checkraise air on this board alot.
3. The ABC way to play this GIVEN THE PREFLOP CALL, is to check call and revaluate turn; lead, check call, or check raise the turn are all suitable depending on opponent and what turns. IF you fold this hand, it will be on the river.

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I agree with all of this, except that I only RR PF like 90%.

Re: HU 5/10 fairly common spot from a student
 

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That brings me back to the "he has a very big hand or a bluff" position, and I think if that's the range you put him on, you have to call, getting 2:1. What do you all think about this?

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Given image, I'd say you're being pretty optimistic about how often he has a bluff.

I don't see him floating the c/r hardly ever, if he thinks Hero is nitty, and I think he's pushing over the top with a stone bluff hardly ever as well.

Sure, he might show up with AK[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], AT[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or what have you, but there are a lot less combos of those hands than Qx.

Re: HU 5/10 fairly common spot from a student
 

I don't like the C/R, C/F in this spot.

I think you should lead out betting on the flop and turn, say 1/2 pot each time. That way, you've taken control of the betting, you are not guessing where you're at; and if you get raised, it's easy to get away from. You would also have saved yourself $90 bucks if behind.

Lead out betting $30 on the flop, and $60 on the turn, it's much cheaper than letting him make a pot size bet and C/R'ing him for 3 times his bet which you did. Now you are blowing up the pot with a very vulnerable hand.

Keep the pot small, making it easier to get away from. By not checking, you can control the bet sizing, and as I mentioned, if you get raised here, especially on the turn, you know you are behind and can get away from the hand. My $0.02 [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I definitely see him having the Q in this spot based on the line you took.

Re: HU 5/10 fairly common spot from a student
 

ok, just finished reading your actual hand, nh. I still like keeping the pot small here OOP, and leading out to put him to the test as well as control pot size.

Re: HU 5/10 fairly common spot from a student
 

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I think you should lead out betting on the flop and turn, say 1/2 pot each time. That way, you've taken control of the betting, you are not guessing where you're at; and if you get raised, it's easy to get away from. You would also have saved yourself $90 bucks if behind.

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Unless leading into him is an established part of your game, you get blown off the best hand a TON of the time, with this line.

Re: HU 5/10 fairly common spot from a student
 

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I think you should lead out betting on the flop and turn, say 1/2 pot each time. That way, you've taken control of the betting, you are not guessing where you're at; and if you get raised, it's easy to get away from. You would also have saved yourself $90 bucks if behind.

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Unless leading into him is an established part of your game, you get blown off the best hand a TON of the time, with this line.

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Right. Very good point. And if we c/c the flop and then donk the turn, I think Villain puts us on exactly the type of hand we have (maybe he puts on slightly less, since no rr pf), and plays "perfectly," never missing value when he's ahead, and raising us with draws, knowing that he probably has overcards as well, and another street to fire on. So unless we're trying to induce a big play, which I think we already agreed is not optimal for someone with Hero's image in this spot, I don't like a c/c flop, lead turn line at all.

Couple more things:
1)I never said Hero is nitty, or weak-tight. I said he's probably viewed by his opponent as somewhat weak-tight. Villain definitely wasn't running over Hero in this match; he was playing a little more aggressive than him. As such, I don't think that Hero c/r'ing the flop and betting the turn represents a Q or better only.

2)Someone mentioned based on stack sizes that Hero should get up, since he's probably getting killed. This was not the case. He was faring decently, given a major dearth of strong hands, and I think he lost 2 buy-ins total.

Anyway, I think this thread contains some pretty interesting thoughts from a lot of smart players. Thanks for that.