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Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
Well, I shouldn't say "destroyed", that was just for an attention catching title.
We all know David Sklansky, the revered math genius and author that created the famous hand rankings we are all so familiar with. What many poker players fail to realize is that poker is not only a game of math, but a game of luck. The basic premise and underlying theory of Sklansky rankings is that when you have a numerical advantage against an opponent, you have a better chance at winning. This is where he was right, but he missed something else completely that makes his rankings flawed. Let me show you an example, backed by a real life event. My brother and I like to play heads up poker against one another and gamble small amounts, like a dollar. It gives us an incentive to play seriously, but at the same time we can gamble and try our luck without risk. So let's examine the final hand: I am dealt: 7*6 offsuit Flop: 358 rainbow - Action, I bet, he reraises, I push (double belly buster). Turn: 3 River: K We turn over the cards- he has J*4 offsuit. You'd figure that since I have at least 7 straight-making cards, and 6 that I can be paired with, I'd have a good chance at winning. But that is not how poker works. He wins with Jack high. Why did he win? Here is the reason (and the basis of my hypothesis). I did not have numerical advantage. If you view the cards simply as numbers, then you will understand what I mean: 2-10 represent the numbers they are. Jack = 11 Queen = 12 King = 13 Ace = 14. To understand numerical advantage multiply the cards by each other. Thus; A*J = 154, 7*6 = 42, J*4 = 44, Q*K= 156. In that hand, I would've never won with AJ, despite the fact that Sklansky would consider hand to be dominant over QK. However, if I had QK, I would've won. AJ would've certainly beat J4, and 76 never had a chance against any of the other 3 hands described. This is because of numerical advantage. Sklansky had it right, but this is where he failed. A6 is supposedly dominant over K7, but A*6 = 84 and K*7 = 91. A difference of 7 by numerical advantage. You may be wondering how this is possible, how could K*7 be dominant over A*6? You are brainwashed by Sklansky and the sheep that treat his books like the Bible and his rankings like the ten commanments! You are the same person who cusses "HOW THE F*CK DID MY A9 GET BUSTED BY QJ, WTF?!", screams, and throws a fit every time he is "supposed to win" because you had a "dominant hand" (according to Sklansky!) Poker, at it's very fundamental, is a game of MATH and LUCK. MATH and LUCK are similar, but very different at the same time. MATH depends on Raw Numbers, Logic, and Reason to succeed. LUCK relies on pure Randomness, Chance, and the Synchronicity of numbers to succeed. Synchronicity is the key word, and I will explain that now. Synchronicity is where the cards align together harmoniously. K7 is more synchronous than A6 for one simple fact. There is less space between the numbers. The closer the numbers are together, the more chance they have at succeeding, this is the LUCK portion of determing your chance at winning. The joy of luck is that you never know what to expect, it is completely random, and that's what makes poker such a fun game. It really is true that "any two cards can win". However, with credit to math, it is also true that "some two cards are usually alot better than other two cards". Math and Luck are like Yin and Yang. They both have the potential and ability to f*ck each other. Literally. Sklansky's Math and YoungDro's Luck will never coincide peacefully. They will eternally be at war. They will never win the war, for they are both equal and as powerful as the other. It's 50/50. Einstein once said "God doesn't play dice with the Universe." Dice is an expression of mathematics (and gambling). But I propose the question "What if God played dice with the Universe and lost the bet to Randomness?" I will not lie nor be ashamed to admit that I am a man and believer of God. (Order) This is why I do not rely on luck to win at poker, I do not chase draws. I rely on pairs. However, you must also recognize the existence of and believe in Randomness. (Chaos). Players that are random by nature may be the unnaturally lucky players that always hit their draws that you may have had the misfortune of coming across. It always seems very "Evil" when you get drawn out on, doesn't it? And doesn't it seem "Good" when your pairs hold up? This is the conclusion of my philosophy and theory. Hopefully my words have rang true in someone's heart. I realize that their will be criticism and even people who will try to point out flaws and holes in my own theory. I realize that my theory is not perfect, and truthfully nothing is perfect due to Order's eternal struggle with Chaos. There will always be synchronicity to maintain balance so that neither is always dominant over the other. I understand that I have not taken the Power of Pocket Pairs or Suits into consideration with this theory. Perhaps I will expound on them at a later date. I am not a math genius, but if you wish to further your understanding on your own, then I'd highly suggest studying about Divine numbers, Prime numbers, Fibonacci sequences, the Golden number, Pi, and other like math concepts that are supernatural and random in nature. Thank you for reading, and I hope this has enlightened someone. If you wish to donate a dollar ($1 USD) as compensation for my work (I am flat broke and having trouble depositing due to credit debt) [Pokerstars username is Y0UNGDR0 with zero's for the O's.] I would be greatly appreciative and thankful for your generosity! -Y0UNGDR0 - 4/16/07 - Copyright |
Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
this has to be copy/pasted from somewhere because no one would type out so much nonsense...
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Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
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this has to be copy/pasted from somewhere because no one would type out so much nonsense... [/ QUOTE ] Copied from my brain into WordPad and then pasted onto this forum, yes. |
Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
nh
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Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
Thank you.
As far as the naysayers are concerned, they are to be expected. Today I played in the Hubble NL Freeroll on Pokerstars against 10,000 other entrants. I deliberately had to exit the tourney due to having to leave my father's house and being on a time constraint, but I left intentionally at 305th place. That's approximately top 3% of the players that entered, so something in my strategy/philosophy is correct and returning a positive expected value. |
Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
Can't believe I wasted 5 minutes reading this pile of crap.
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Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
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Can't believe I wasted 5 minutes reading this pile of crap. [/ QUOTE ] Thanks for the positive and insightful feedback. It was very helpful. |
Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
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You are brainwashed by Sklansky and the sheep that treat his books like the Bible and his rankings like the ten commanments! [/ QUOTE ] Thank-you. I will now seek help to end this affliction. MM |
Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
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[ QUOTE ] You are brainwashed by Sklansky and the sheep that treat his books like the Bible and his rankings like the ten commanments! [/ QUOTE ] Thank-you. I will now seek help to end this affliction. MM [/ QUOTE ] You're welcome. $1 to my Poker Stars account and I'll refer you to my father's girlfriend, who is an accomplished shrink with a PhD. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] |
Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
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However, you must also recognize the existence of and believe in Randomness. (Chaos).. [/ QUOTE ] Oh, its existence is very apparent.. [ QUOTE ] (I am flat broke and having trouble depositing due to credit debt) [/ QUOTE ] I'm shocked! I'll deposit a dollar if I find out you've been leveling us though. If so, nh! |
Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
Seems at least the Sheep are at least intelligent enough to understand Card Domination.
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Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
You are 15 days too late.
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Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
Where do you play I would like to go heads up and test your theory, LOL. I see at least you are putting effort into thinking about the game so that is a good thing. I have to believe in the method of Pros, the ones who make a living at it.
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Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
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Let me show you an example, backed by a real life event. [/ QUOTE ] You're killing me. [ QUOTE ] My brother and I like to play heads up poker against one another... [/ QUOTE ] Do you ever play HU not against each other...like on the same side as each other? [ QUOTE ] So let's examine the final hand: [/ QUOTE ] The *final* hand. No more poker? [ QUOTE ] Why did he win? Here is the reason (and the basis of my hypothesis). I did not have numerical advantage. If you view the cards simply as numbers, then you will understand what I mean: 2-10 represent the numbers they are. Jack = 11 Queen = 12 King = 13 Ace = 14. To understand numerical advantage multiply the cards by each other. Thus; A*J = 154, 7*6 = 42, J*4 = 44, Q*K= 156. In that hand, I would've never won with AJ, despite the fact that Sklansky would consider hand to be dominant over QK. However, if I had QK, I would've won. AJ would've certainly beat J4, and 76 never had a chance against any of the other 3 hands described. This is because of numerical advantage. [/ QUOTE ] So, AQ (168) would have beaten KQ? Because here is where your theory may need some refinement. KQ (156) < AQ (168), yet, counter-intuitively, in the final hand, KQ would have prevailed despite the fact that AQ clearly enjoys the numerical advantage. Perhaps the sample size is too large. Look for a dollar from me shortly. |
Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
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... I left intentionally at 305th place. That's approximately top 3% of the players that entered, so something in my strategy/philosophy is correct and returning a positive expected value. [/ QUOTE ] This lends support to the luck and chaos part of your theory. |
Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
yeah, opening up this forum so anyone can make an OP was a GREAT idea.
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Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
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yeah, opening up this forum so anyone can make an OP was a GREAT idea. [/ QUOTE ] Just pray we're being levelled and enjoy |
Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
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Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
Wow. it really takes balls to leave your name (youngdro i think) attached to a post like this... Im guessing this post was written as a joke. i shouldnt respond but i feel compelled to just because i will never get those precious minutes of my life back...
[censored] you youngdro you [censored] douchebag piece of [censored] |
Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
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[ QUOTE ] However, you must also recognize the existence of and believe in Randomness. (Chaos).. [/ QUOTE ] Oh, its existence is very apparent.. [ QUOTE ] (I am flat broke and having trouble depositing due to credit debt) [/ QUOTE ] I'm shocked! I'll deposit a dollar if I find out you've been leveling us though. If so, nh! [/ QUOTE ] shocked, why? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] and what do you mean 'leveling us'? you mean truthful? my bank account is negative 167 dollars, and my credit card has an outstanding balance of 344 dollars. I got screwed real bad by this company called www.creditlinegoldcard.com who called me up one morning and persuaded me to give them all my personal information (SS #, routing number, etc) promising a $2500 credit line, and they withdrew $100 from my bank account when i had like $10 in there so my bank charged overdraft fees and everything. I got scammed real bad. =( |
Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
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Where do you play I would like to go heads up and test your theory, LOL. I see at least you are putting effort into thinking about the game so that is a good thing. I have to believe in the method of Pros, the ones who make a living at it. [/ QUOTE ] I play at Poker Stars. What do you want to play heads up with? Play chips? Because that's all that I have. Thanks for not totally dismissing my theory. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] |
Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
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[ QUOTE ] Let me show you an example, backed by a real life event. [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] You're killing me. [/ QUOTE ] Sorry. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] [ QUOTE ] My brother and I like to play heads up poker against one another... [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Do you ever play HU not against each other...like on the same side as each other? [/ QUOTE ] No. We are very competitive with each other. It runs in the family, on the weekends we'll sit around and play HU against each other, sometimes our Dad or my cousin James will play too. [ QUOTE ] So let's examine the final hand: [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] The *final* hand. No more poker? [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, I was extremely angry that he had called me with Jack high and I went on a cussing rampage. Haha. I asked him why he called me with J*4 when I pushed on the flop, and he simply responded "Because I didn't think you had sh*t". Good answer. [ QUOTE ] Why did he win? Here is the reason (and the basis of my hypothesis). I did not have numerical advantage. If you view the cards simply as numbers, then you will understand what I mean: 2-10 represent the numbers they are. Jack = 11 Queen = 12 King = 13 Ace = 14. To understand numerical advantage multiply the cards by each other. Thus; A*J = 154, 7*6 = 42, J*4 = 44, Q*K= 156. In that hand, I would've never won with AJ, despite the fact that Sklansky would consider hand to be dominant over QK. However, if I had QK, I would've won. AJ would've certainly beat J4, and 76 never had a chance against any of the other 3 hands described. This is because of numerical advantage. [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] So, AQ (168) would have beaten KQ? Because here is where your theory may need some refinement. KQ (156) < AQ (168), yet, counter-intuitively, in the final hand, KQ would have prevailed despite the fact that AQ clearly enjoys the numerical advantage. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, I forgot to address this when I was writing last night. AQ does enjoy the numerical advantage, and has math on its side. KQ enjoys more synchronicity (they are not gapped, and closer together) which would mean it has more luck on its side. Of course, any two cards can beat any other two. Despite A*K having a distinct NA over 2*4, 2*4 always has the completely random possibility of winning over A*K, but according to NA it is less likely. Also, the only way to employ this theory is knowing and having a very good read on your opponent. It is only useful for helping to calculate your luck odds. If you have a good read that you have a numerical advantage against your opponent, that your hand is "luckier", then this could help to aid you in winning the hand. Thanks for asking this, and thanks for the constructive criticism. My theory definitely needs refinement, I agree. [ QUOTE ] Perhaps the sample size is too large. Look for a dollar from me shortly. [/ QUOTE ] Yay! Thank you! If you or anyone has any doubts that I'm broke as a joke, I can provide screenshots of my Poker Stars cashier as proof. |
Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
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http://www.timecube.com/ = OP [/ QUOTE ] I did not mean this thread to turn into a religious battle between the faithful and the pagan. Posting this link is irrelevant and ignorant, please stick to the topic. |
Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
Do we need anymore proof that not everyone should be allowed to post in this forum?
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Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
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Wow. it really takes balls to leave your name (youngdro i think) attached to a post like this... Im guessing this post was written as a joke. i shouldnt respond but i feel compelled to just because i will never get those precious minutes of my life back... [censored] you youngdro you [censored] douchebag piece of [censored] [/ QUOTE ] It is no joke and nobody forced you to read it. No one forced you to reply and offer a negative opinion. Do you not think that your negativity and ignorant puerile insults are a waste of time either? I can understand that you're not very open-minded and ideas as deep and complex as this take a leap of faith to understand. Your mother probably never taught you to not offer your opinion unless you have something good to say. You could've have easily read, exited, and never replied to this thread... but you chose ignorantly to respond dismissing (but not disproving) my theory and insulting my character, which was unnecessary and unwarranted. I am the better man, and yes, I do have quite large testicles, thanks for noticing. |
Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
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Do we need anymore proof that not everyone should be allowed to post in this forum? [/ QUOTE ] I love sheep. They love to follow the crowd and redundantly repeat what others have already said. |
Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
After reading the part where he claimed his hand was a double belly buster when it was a simpe oesd, and the fact that he doesnt realize the concept of all in equity, i pretty much quit reading this after close to 20 seconds.
you are a moron sir, my dad has a phd, who gives a [censored]. |
Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
hey youngdro. im going to trace your ip address and come over. by tomorrow you and your brothers bodies will be at the bottom of a river..
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Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
I wont make fun of ya but you theory sounds bad. I will give you K-9 and I will take A-6 and we will do 50 flops at 50 a piece.
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Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
Some quick advice:
1) Move this thread to BBV 2) Juxtapose with This thread where OP demonstrates why overcards are superior to Pocket Pairs 3) Hilarity ensues! |
Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
This theory is very close to the "Get Smart" theory about life. In that TV series the good organization was "Control" and the bad guys were "Chaos". Control always won - but they always did things the wrong way and just kind of lucked into their victories. The star of that show, Don Adams, never was able to parlay his one TV series success into stardom just as I am afraid that you will never be able to win with your fantasy theory anywhere outside of that heads up $1 game with your brother. I think you have a shot against your brother because, my guess is that he shares some of your genes.
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Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
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This theory is very close to the "Get Smart" theory about life. In that TV series the good organization was "Control" and the bad guys were "Chaos". Control always won - but they always did things the wrong way and just kind of lucked into their victories. The star of that show, Don Adams, never was able to parlay his one TV series success into stardom just as I am afraid that you will never be able to win with your fantasy theory anywhere outside of that heads up $1 game with your brother. I think you have a shot against your brother because, my guess is that he shares some of your genes. [/ QUOTE ]He will have to wear his brothers jeans if he plays poker like this, he wont have any money for his own. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] |
Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
YoungDro's brother is also his son. Theres been alot of inbreeding going on in that family for generations.
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Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
Thanks for the response. I'm speechless.
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Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
Another Darwin thread?
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Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] You are brainwashed by Sklansky and the sheep that treat his books like the Bible and his rankings like the ten commanments! [/ QUOTE ] Thank-you. I will now seek help to end this affliction. MM [/ QUOTE ] You're welcome. $1 to my Poker Stars account and I'll refer you to my father's girlfriend, who is an accomplished shrink with a PhD. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Well at least you got a reply from Mason himself. Not sure if it's worth more or less than $1 tho. I'll transfer you $1 if you tell me exactly what you were smoking... |
Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
OP is correct.
Extrapolating from his post, a hand like 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (YD number 81) should be quite an underdog to a hand like 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (YD number 117). What is interesting is that when I test this hypothesis by running "hot and cold" simulations on PokerStove or cardplayer.com, the simulator incorrectly assigns 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] the greater win probability (by a healthy margin, too: PS thinks pocket 9's are about a 7-to-3 favorite over A9). In addition to its implications for what Sklansky might term "reverse domination" situations (o! the irony!), OP's system correctly implies that suited hands offer no advantages over offsuit hands, which should be intuitively obvious to all of you. (Clearly, it is just as good to have two chancese to make a four card flush as it is to have only one chance at a three-carder. (3-1=2; but 4-2=2 as well. Q.E.D.)) These examples support OP's assertion that much current poker thinking is incorrect: Sklansky has not only inadvertantly tricked many of the readers of these forums; indeed, his corrupting influence appears to have spread even to those computer programmers who design poker software. To Y0ungdr0: Thank you very much for your help! If you do manage to collect some donations, please let me know. I certainly believe your work deserves compensation. Personally, I would most like to present my money to you "over the table", ideally by going all-in preflop in one or two heads-up NL situations your system has identified. My thought is, we can reveal our hands preflop, and in order to assure that you receive your due, I will take the worst of it in any of the mismatch situations that you've discovered, EG by playing A6 against your K7. I really like this, because my donations will be in direct proportion to the value of your thoughts (especially over the course of the many hands I hope we can get in, so as to further my learning). Given the strength of your ideas and your great generosity in sharing them, I feel like no matter how much I end up eventually donating, I'll be getting one heck of a bargain! I'll look you up next time I'm on PS. Thanks again for your terrific thoughts! Warm regards, Jogger |
Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
Yep, sorry Dave Im gonna have a DS book burning now because I have seen the light.Does anyone else want to burn away years of DS hard work so we can follow YOUNGDRO? Sorry YOUNGDRO just havin some fun at you exspense.:)
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Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
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A6 is supposedly dominant over K7, but A*6 = 84 and K*7 = 91. A difference of 7 by numerical advantage. [/ QUOTE ] Forget supposed, put this in pokerstove monte carlo and let it run a couple zillion hands and see what you get... *cough* its about 19 "points" as you call them going the wrong way... Dude if this was supposed to be funny, its not... |
Re: Sklansky Hand Rankings Destroyed! >=)
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hey youngdro. im going to trace your ip address and come over. by tomorrow you and your brothers bodies will be at the bottom of a river.. [/ QUOTE ] Cool. |
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