Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

I was playing 25-50 last night at the Venetian and had an interesting hand.

Table was 8 handed. Villain had about 20k or so and was fairly aggressive playing a lot of pots bluffing about half of them. He liked to call people's raises pre-flop for the chance to outplay them. So he could shove his cards in their face once they made a bad lay down. I saw him do this 3 times already and I've only been at the table for about an hour. Anyways on to the hand. I'm the small fry as usual sat down w/ about 8k and worked it up to about 13k at this point.

Hero gets J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in MP.

Pre-Flop: UTG limps folds to hero who makes it 300, Villain directly to my left calls, button calls, rest fold. 3 players

Flop: (1025) J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero bets 900 Villain calls, button folds.

Turn: (2825) 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Herco checks, Villain checks (I was intending to CR here since the likeliness of him betting here was very high.)

River: (2825) Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero bets 1200 Villain raises to 5200. Hero?

And I know obviously bet the turn hard, but I was taking a chance here because of the type of player I was up against. There's only 15 bad river cards so I took my chance.

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

Id call this, although it does look like he may have spiked that gut shot AK on you. But I'm not sure if he'd reraise that pre, he prob would. I think your river bet is so small that you induced the bluff, so id pay off. You made a potsize bet ($2500) and he raises that then i'd prob fold

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

instant call...thats why you bet $1200 on the river right?

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

No I bet for value. I thought my hand looked quite strong given the line I took. I took the same line in a hand before with him when I had top two which he paid off w/ TPTK after much thought. I think is he has air he bets the turn here. When he checked behind I put him on a draw like 89 or AK diamonds type hand.
I really felt he thought I was strong because my line here looks like about what I have or a draw that got there like a hand like he probably had. The only hand I've seen him reraise pre-flop is AA and he pops it big.

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

I like check/call on this river way more than betting. I dont think your getting much value from your hand because he would have bet any half-way decent made hand on the turn. I like your hand as a bluffcatcher.

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

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No I bet for value. I thought my hand looked quite strong given the line I took. I took the same line in a hand before with him when I had top two which he paid off w/ TPTK after much thought. I think is he has air he bets the turn here. When he checked behind I put him on a draw like 89 or AK diamonds type hand.
I really felt he thought I was strong because my line here looks like about what I have or a draw that got there like a hand like he probably had. The only hand I've seen him reraise pre-flop is AA and he pops it big.

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You can't bet $1200 on the river and then fold as you are begging him to raise and based on what you say he bluffs a ton right?

Had you bet $2200 and he pushed then it would be more interesting mainly because it looks like you have QQ/AK/bluff so not a ton of hands raise for value.

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

QQ is really unlikely because by the description you gave, he would probably reraised preflop, or reraised you at the flop. He did neither. AK may be a possiblity but I suspect he would try to take it away from you at the turn, or possbly at the flop if he had that hand.

Your river bet looks really weak, and may have induced him to take a stab at this. So I think you gotta call this one.

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

call and everybody who says different has no clue.

with that weak river bet he could be even value raising with 2 pr. (QT for example) not to mention the high likelyhood of this playertype bluffing a missed flushdraw.

if you bet 2500 and he shoves well thats closer but still a call imo.
btw i like your turn check-raise attempt, but it should be a large one. probably all-in if he bets anywhere near potsize.

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

You flopped top set on the flop and bet out.When you checked the turn(slowed down),and then value bet $1200 on the river......based on your description of villain,i think you "begged him" to C/R at that point as Jw513 said above.
I call here also!

~sf

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

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call and everybody who says different has no clue.

with that weak river bet he could be even value raising with 2 pr. (QT for example) not to mention the high likelyhood of this playertype bluffing a missed flushdraw.

if you bet 2500 and he shoves well thats closer but still a call imo.
btw i like your turn check-raise attempt, but it should be a large one. probably all-in if he bets anywhere near potsize.

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I think this is 98 a lot though.

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

Weak river bet + busted flush draw = call.

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

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Weak river bet + busted flush draw = call.

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Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

folding sets is weaksauce though my guess is that u saw 89 or K9

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

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folding sets is weaksauce though my guess is that u saw 89 or K9

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My guess is he folded. Another thing to consider is that if you look weak, and he raises a large amount, he's usually weak. If you look weak and he raises small, that's more likely to be strength. If you look strong and he raises at all, that should be strength.

Here, you say you think you look strong, but we all think 1200 looks weak. There's the dilemma. If you really think you were transmitting strength, and he raised 4K on top, then fold, assuming he's not just an out of control idiot (he sounds very good). If your 1200 looks weak, call.

Actually, it's pretty hard to get away from this getting over 2:1 vs. a habitual bluffer, regardless.

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

call duh

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

this isn't even that horrible of a card, call

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

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I like check/call on this river way more than betting. I dont think your getting much value from your hand because he would have bet any half-way decent made hand on the turn. I like your hand as a bluffcatcher.

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LOL check/call? are you out of your mind. Horrible advice. You can't fold this ever, the river is way too good a spot to rep a big hand, this could easily be someone with a weak 10 turning their hand into a bluff.

btw spino, what are your account names? I'd love to play you sometime

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

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I like check/call on this river way more than betting. I dont think your getting much value from your hand because he would have bet any half-way decent made hand on the turn. I like your hand as a bluffcatcher.

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makes no sense to me. please explain further.

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

i dont think you can fold this hand ever.

looks like a smaller set raising you here TBH.

this would be a strange line w/ AK

98 makes sense, Kd9d doesn't make as much sense

the way you played it you could have AK...

still, I think you see a smaller set as often as you see 98 or a better hand, must call, esp. given the size of your river bet.

also, bet the turn.

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

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I like check/call on this river way more than betting. I dont think your getting much value from your hand because he would have bet any half-way decent made hand on the turn. I like your hand as a bluffcatcher.

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makes no sense to me. please explain further.

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dont worry hes wrong

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

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I like check/call on this river way more than betting. I dont think your getting much value from your hand because he would have bet any half-way decent made hand on the turn. I like your hand as a bluffcatcher.

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makes no sense to me. please explain further.

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dont worry hes wrong

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Its pretty simple. Besides QK I cant think of any made hands that villain plays like this. I mean he could have the 4th jack, but chances are against it. I think villain has a draw here way more often than a made hand, and so a check/call makes a lot of sense here as you avoid paying off 98 too much and get the busted flush draw to bluff. Yes you loose value from KQ or the rare J that decides to look you up, but I think its worth it. Hell I think KQ/AQ has a good chance of betting here so you still get money from that too. Basically any hand that calls a bet you make will make a bet if checked to on this river.

This assumes villain is aggressive player of course.

And to the person who wanted to know my SN: EvilEcstasy, your welcome to play me anytime.

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

is that stars? u play 10/20 right? and do u play hu? if yes to all these gogogogo

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

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is that stars? u play 10/20 right? and do u play hu? if yes to all these gogogogo

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im not playing you heads-up. I practice something called game selection with regards to heads-up. Normally play 5/10 6-max and 10/20 FR on Bodog. Sometimes play on Stars.

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

I guess I was wrong

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

I dont know why he has a problem with my advice but part of the reason I post is to learn and discuss different strategies. I am not going to be a sheep and just go along with what the herd says.

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

This looks like an easy fold

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

I was thinking about this hand and was curious about something.

What do people think of shoving the river?

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

Easy fold? Shove the river? I must have been away from the tables too long..

Also, 25 50 at the V? Is there some kind of tournament craziness going on in Vegas now?

Disclaimer: I've only been to Vegas once, perhaps it was some freak occurence that they only had 5/10 going during those two weeks.. did see 10 20 once.

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

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I was thinking about this hand and was curious about something.

What do people think of shoving the river?

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are we trying to get QQ to fold, or TT to call? because neither of those is happening

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

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I was thinking about this hand and was curious about something.

What do people think of shoving the river?

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are we trying to get QQ to fold, or TT to call? because neither of those is happening

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I don't think villain shows up with TT often. I think most of the time his range is mainly air/89 maybe Kd9d. This seems suicidal but I think villain would have a very tough time calling a shove with 89.

This line might be retarded but I'm just throwing it out there.

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

oh this is live (didn't notice at 1st)...then I'd insta call

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

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He liked to call people's raises pre-flop for the chance to outplay them.

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And only two hands you can put him on are 8d9d and AdKd ?

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

you really think he's BLUFFIN here?

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] Please move this thread to micro stakes.

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

Just curious, but why doesn't the OP ever eventually post the outcome in these type of threads?

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

Callllllllll.

Villain sounds like the type that would have raised flop or atleast bet the turn with a draw, checking behind sounds alot like he had a hand with some value and then on the river decided to turn it into a bluff.

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

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Just curious, but why doesn't the OP ever eventually post the outcome in these type of threads?

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Because then everyone would tell him to post in BBV instead.

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

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He liked to call people's raises pre-flop for the chance to outplay them.

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And only two hands you can put him on are 8d9d and AdKd ?

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Yes because I had a hand like this w/ him about 20 min prior where I used the exact same line w/ top 2 pair and when I made a bet like that on the river he thought for awhile and simply called w/ TPTK. That's why I stated that I knew that he knew I was strong yet he still raised. I played my hand like I had AK, QJ, or maybe even QQ. Plus the only time I saw him check behind on boards like this was when he had a good draw that he didn't want to get CR'd on. Bluffs and made hands he'd CR flop, raise flop, call flop bet turn. So I know about getting 2:1 and all that, but sometimes you gotta go w/ your read I put more weight in my read than on any math related poker theory.

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

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but sometimes you gotta go w/ your read I put more weight in my read than on any math related poker theory.

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Then don't post hands at a math-related poker theorist's website asking for math-related poker theory advice...?

You seem to be answering your own questions..

Re: Lay Down Second Set on the River? 25-50
 

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He liked to call people's raises pre-flop for the chance to outplay them.

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And only two hands you can put him on are 8d9d and AdKd ?

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Yes because I had a hand like this w/ him about 20 min prior where I used the exact same line w/ top 2 pair and when I made a bet like that on the river he thought for awhile and simply called w/ TPTK. That's why I stated that I knew that he knew I was strong yet he still raised. I played my hand like I had AK, QJ, or maybe even QQ. Plus the only time I saw him check behind on boards like this was when he had a good draw that he didn't want to get CR'd on. Bluffs and made hands he'd CR flop, raise flop, call flop bet turn. So I know about getting 2:1 and all that, but sometimes you gotta go w/ your read I put more weight in my read than on any math related poker theory.

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I guess you ended up folding? For the amount you bet on the river, I think you have to call