Killer Poker: By the Numbers?
 

I was trying to use up my HollywoodPark points and decided to get a book. Killer Poker: By the Numbers by Tony Guerrera was the only one that I could find that seemed worth-while (that I didn't already have). It seems to focus on statistical analysis of situations, and in that sense it is very dry. I have only read the first 20 pages, and leafed through the rest...

Has anyone read this in its entirety? Is it worthwhile? I lack alot of the in-depth understanding of the mathematical side of poker that this book seems to provide, but it seems so God-awful boring that I fear it might be a huge waste of time.

If anyone has read some/all of the book please comment.

Re: Killer Poker: By the Numbers?
 

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It seems to focus on statistical analysis of situations,

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I would restate this as it's focus is on mathematical analysis of no-limit poker situations where you put your opponent on a range of possible hands.

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and in that sense it is very dry.

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Fair enough. "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" it ain't.

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I have only read the first 20 pages, and leafed through the rest...

Has anyone read this in its entirety? Is it worthwhile?


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Short answer: Possibly. Slightly longer answer: I think it will be worthwhile for a significant number of no-limit poker players.

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I lack alot of the in-depth understanding of the mathematical side of poker that this book seems to provide,


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Sounds to me like a good reason to read it.

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but it seems so God-awful boring that I fear it might be a huge waste of time.


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This makes absolutely no sense to me, boring != waste of time. Is this an aspect of your poker knowledge that could use improvement? It sounds like it is. So, if you're serious about your game, it's possible that you might learn something if you roll up your sleeves and work your way through the book.

It would be nice if the most informative poker books were also the most fun to read, but that's not always the case. Serious students of poker will read the useful boring ones as well as a the fun ones.

So you can make a well-informed decision, the book is all preamble up to about page 78 (or arguably the subsequent chapter). Until that point I didn't completely understand what it was about.

Re: Killer Poker: By the Numbers?
 

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Has anyone read this in its entirety?

[/ QUOTE ] Not in its entirety. I got half way through and decided I would rather have forced intercourse with a baboon than finish reading it.

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Is it worthwhile?

[/ QUOTE ] Possibly. Do you forsee needing to kindle a wood burning stove in your near future?

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I lack alot of the in-depth understanding of the mathematical side of poker

[/ QUOTE ] You are not alone. Many players don't have all the "back end" math. Lack of the advanced math is not a sin, nor is it entirely nessasary to become an over-all winning player.

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it seems so God-awful boring

[/ QUOTE ] I love poker, so anything that helps my fundamental understanding of the game isn't boring to me. This book was boring to me.

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I fear it might be a huge waste of time.

[/ QUOTE ] I would say your fear is not irrational.

Re: Killer Poker: By the Numbers?
 

In short, KPBTN is a worthwhile book.

Slightly longer story: I picked up the Killer Poker Online crushing the Internet game a year or two ago, and it was godawful. Since then, I had leafed through other Killer Poker books and found them equally atrocious.

A couple weeks ago I glanced at KPBTN but didn't give it much of my time because of prior experience with the Killer Poker line. But it did seem to have some actual content instead of the usual fluff and stuff.

Then I saw a post somewhere on here where the OP seemed to praise the book. So I decided to give it a chance. I'm glad I did. It's not as dry as you think. Sure there's math, but there is also a good bit of practical advice that is derived from the math. He has a good writing style. Make sure to read from the beginning because he explains how he goes about calculating the probabilities and odds for the rest of the book.

I'm not a "math" guy, in that I usually suck at math. But his explanations made it very easy to grasp.

Re: Killer Poker: By the Numbers?
 

There is a new Killer poker book out i think its called Killer Poker No limit. dont confuse it with the Killer Poker Online series. I heard this book is better then the online series.

Re: Killer Poker: By the Numbers?
 

Is "Killer Poker: By the numbers" about limit or no-limit or both? Or all poker games?

Amazon won't tell you, reviews won't tell you and even the book's own web site won't tell you.

Cheers,

Smurf

Re: Killer Poker: By the Numbers?
 

No limit Hold them.

Re: Killer Poker: By the Numbers?
 

Hi guys,

I just discovered this book, and was quite intrigued since the author was a friendly aquaintance of mine during our undergrad days (before I moved and we lost touch...). I am currently about half way through and intend to post a more detailed review when finished. So stay tuned to this forum [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Best Regards,
Collin

Re: Killer Poker: By the Numbers?
 

I love this book

If you're a math geek who loves thinking about opponent ranges and playing with pokerstove, you'll love it as well.

It isn't a guide, but a great addendum to any no-limit library IMO.

I like it to Hold'em on the Come for no-limit play.

Re: Killer Poker: By the Numbers?
 

what would be in this book that isn't in "Mathematics Of Poker"?

anyone?

just curious.

Re: Killer Poker: By the Numbers?
 

a lot

"mathematics of poker" looked at many games that had some assumptions that, while applicable, are not direct situations in most poker games.
"By the Numbers," on the other hand, looked at many specific scenarios that a player does encounter and looked at the maths behind them, such as:
how often does your opponent hit top pair on the flop?
how often does your opponent have a draw on certain boards with a starting range?
what hand strength looks like when the flop pairs?
etc

Re: Killer Poker: By the Numbers?
 

The book is very dry, and very informative. It ought to be read by serious players while intaking huge quantities of caffeine. And for what its worth, I've read some of the Killer Poker series and this is the opposite of the others. The others are light, easy reading that are mildly useful and are not going to dramatically alter anyone's game. This is a book that is chock full of important stuff. But its the hard, important, math stuff.

Re: Killer Poker: By the Numbers?
 

Alright, so what's the best math poker book out there? Do you guys think Killer Poker is it ?

Re: Killer Poker: By the Numbers?
 

Texas Hold'em Odds and Probabilities by Matthew Hilger is next on my reading list.

I always said that if enough people recommended Killer Poker By the Numbers I would give it another try. Maybe after Texas Hold'em Odds and Probabilities.

I am currently reading Killer Poker No Limit, and while it isn't ground breaking and I can't stand the author's "Dr. Susse" style of writing, it isn't bad. It outlines a decent, and most likely winning, style of NL cash game play.

Re: Killer Poker: By the Numbers?
 

I'm reading KPBTN right now, and I really, really like it. Then again I also study theoretical physics at Harvard, so I tend to like mathy stuff in general [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Guerrera has a very clear (which could = boring for some people) style of writing, and he explains basic probability theory in the context of NLHE very well.

But I don't think there's any point in getting the book cause you think it'll be "good" for you - it's not gonna do much for you that PT + PokerStove don't already do very well. It's just a nice way to get a better theoretical understanding of how poker works - learning to think about NLHE (and every other form of poker) in terms of a hand-range, equity-based framework is fun and interesting. But if you care about deepening your theoretical understanding of poker (as opposed to your practical understanding), yeah, don't get the book, you won't enjoy it.

Disclaimer: I'm very new to poker, so I'm not widely-read at all. But from what I've read so far in Sklansky and Miller's NLHTP, the math in KPBTN is much "mathier" - Guerrera talks a bunch about combinatorics, etc., not just how to compute simple EV calculations.

Also, I tried reading "Mathematics of Poker" and thought it seemed completely useless - KPBTN is really just a book about simple probability theory, it has NOTHING to do with applying game theory to poker (which doesn't strike me as being an obviously useful thing to do - but whatever, I'll read MOP at some point, maybe my opinion will change). So if books like NLHTP are high-school math, KPBTN is college level and MOP is like a goofy graduate seminar or something.

Re: Killer Poker: By the Numbers?
 

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KPBTN is really just a book about simple probability theory, it has NOTHING to do with applying game theory to poker change).

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You meant MOP instead of KPBTN here, right ?

Re: Killer Poker: By the Numbers?
 

chum ... Funny how you talk about learning poker from a theoretical POW, and then in the same sentence claim MOP to be useless

It is a good primer in how to think about poker and how to contruct a solid game, with some nice concept, like betting a worse hand preemtively etc.


MOP did much more for me than TOP in many ways.

Re: Killer Poker: By the Numbers?
 

I think I mean KPBTN - MOP is mostly about game theory, right? Ha if not then I'm really embarrassed - like I said I didn't get very far with it. See next post for why not.

All I was trying to say is that KPBTN at heart is just a simple probability book - it teaches you how to use combinations, permutations etc. to look at poker hands. There's no "higher" math.

Re: Killer Poker: By the Numbers?
 

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I think I mean KPBTN - MOP is mostly about game theory, right? Ha if not then I'm really embarrassed - like I said I didn't get very far with it. See next post for why not.

All I was trying to say is that KPBTN at heart is just a simple probability book - it teaches you how to use combinations, permutations etc. to look at poker hands. There's no "higher" math.

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Right .... and yeah, MOP is strickly a game theory book. It walks your thru a lot of small poker(like) games for building intuition.

This post is has the same spirit as MOP.

Re: Killer Poker: By the Numbers?
 

seems good
i know it is a math/stats book
will this book good for short-handed game?

thanks

Re: Killer Poker: By the Numbers?
 

This book is totally different than the MOP Chen book
Its all about specific hands how to think to play against ranges etc.. MOP is about bigger picture issues, balancing your play, and other meta issues... and yeah MOP is game theory where By The Numbers is not.

Re: Killer Poker: By the Numbers?
 

But can it (KPbtN) be applied to fixed limit hold'em games?