The Dude Converts
 

I'm not sure that this post wouldn't be more appropriate in the SMP forum, but since David Sklansky's arguments had at least some influence on this decision, I'll put it here.

This past Wednesday night I became convinced that the Universe exists without a supernatural designer. In fact, I am of the opinion that it is a virtual certainty that "God" doesn't exist. The nature of the arguments that lead me to this conclusion are not such that you can accept them and be less certain. Either the arguments are valid and God's existence is all but ruled out, or you reject the arguments and are left to other considerations.

So, in a matter of 15 minutes I went from being roughly, I don't know, 70% sure that the Biblical God is real to being virtually certain he is not. This was not an easy thing for me to admit to myself. Indeed, it's not an easy thing for a Christian to admit to himself that he's even open to these kinds of arguments, let alone buys into them.

Anyway, most of the people I cherish and love in this world (including my wife) are Christian. I don't know how this is going to play out in my life, but I do know that hiding this within myself wasn't a workable option.

Well, I don't know if any of you care or not, but I at least want to say to David that not all of his messages to Christians fall on deaf ears. While it was Richard Dawkin's "Ultimate 747" argument that delivered the final blow, I was only open to the idea because of countless conversations (message board or whatever) I've had over the past three years, not the least convincing of which were in threads started by David.

Cheers,
Dude

Re: The Dude Converts
 

welcome to the dark side. We have been waiting for you.

Re: The Dude Converts
 

Not meaning any offense, Dude, but Dawkin's response to the 747 analogy is quite weak. (At least, assuming the summaries I've read do a decent job summing up his "rebuttal".)

Specifically, if we were to stipulate that a designer would indeed need to be quite complex (and I'm not sure whether or not this is true, but let's grant it for the sake of discussion),
1) "He" would not need to be "designed" himself. The notion of the "unmoved mover" is an old, fundamental concept in Christianity.
2) The point of the 747 analogy is strictly to make a comparison, because one way or another, the 747 (complex life in the universe) indisputable *does* exist. The question that remains is, is it more likely that a complex, undesigned designer built the 747, or was it the tornado?

Quite clearly Dawkins would prefer it to be the latter, but his preference (and the reasoning he uses to support it) makes little sense to me.

Re: The Dude Converts
 

Wow. The Dude has a wife? Reading this post I coulda sworn he was gay... oh well...


and there is a God, Ive met him.

Re: The Dude Converts
 

Takes a lot of courage. Welcome to the dark side indeed [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: The Dude Converts
 

I suppose, since we're on the subject, I'll share my story of when I realized I didn't believe in God.

I've never really had any strong feelings about my belief or nonbelief in God. I'm a senior in college now, and for the past two years I've been working toward my math degree. This drastically changed my thinking process, to say the least, specifically, it made me rethink why I believe things. Of course, the subject of God doesn't come up much in math courses, so I had never really given it any thought. Then, Daniel Negreanu asked Bill Chen if he believed in God. That sparked me to think about my belief in God in a mathematical context.

Well, I'm pretty confident that, as far as math is concerned, God doesn't exist. But that's a bit tangential to my point.

So I was walking one day, and I guess I had nothing better to think about, so I asked myself, "Do I believe in God?"
Yes, I thought. "Why?"
Because if I don't, I'm going to hell. But fear isn't a good enough reason to believe in God, IMO. It reminds me of the quote by JFK: "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself." I agree. We shouldn't be afraid of God. We should be afraid of being afraid of God. In that context, God seems like a tyrant. So my question "Why?" was left unanswered.

I don't believe in God because I have no reason to. Or at least, no reason that I deem worthy.

It's definitely an emotional experience.

Re: The Dude Converts
 

BTW, my wife just left me.

Re: The Dude Converts
 

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BTW, my wife just left me.

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See, there is a God.

Re: The Dude Converts
 

Other way around here. I grew up atheist, for all the usual logical reasons. Then God started talking to me.

Re: The Dude Converts
 

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It reminds me of the quote by JFK: "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."

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You should fear misquoting people.

Re: The Dude Converts
 

"Well, I'm pretty confident that, as far as math is concerned, God doesn't exist. But that's a bit tangential to my point."

God invented math. Where do you go to college, Devry? What does math have to do with there being a God? You sound very confused.

Math is mans way of explaining the physics of Gods universe...

Re: The Dude Converts
 

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It reminds me of the quote by JFK: "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."

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You should fear misquoting people.

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Wasn't that FDR?

Re: The Dude Converts
 

[ QUOTE ]
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It reminds me of the quote by JFK: "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."

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You should fear misquoting people.

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Wasn't that FDR?

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I was always bad with presidents. Someone said it.

Re: The Dude Converts
 

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BTW, my wife just left me.

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Was this before or after you stopped believing in God?

Re: The Dude Converts
 

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Was this before or after you stopped believing in God?

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After. Because. I regret posting this now, since things haven't played out fully yet, and it's not 100% decided what's going to happen. But it doesn't look good.

To say that this is a surprising turn of events is an understatement.

Re: The Dude Converts
 

ffs just tell her you changed your mind and go to church on sunday

ev+

Re: The Dude Converts
 

Well, I did speak a bit prematurely. We're going to go through some counseling, and perhaps we'll be able to work things out. I don't know yet.

Re: The Dude Converts
 

Wow. Assuming this is all on the level, that's pretty crazy. A pretty unchristian reaction on the part of your wife. I thought you were supposed to welcome the sinners. Re-converting you could have been her personal project.

Personally I didn't think the Ultimate 747 argument was that much of a home run, but it doesn't matter. Now you're looking at religion from the other side, it will probably start to seem pretty silly to you.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Re: The Dude Converts
 

wow, if you are serious dude your wife is completely in the wrong. Is there anything else that she's mad at you for? Sometimes women use little things as an excuse when something else is really the problem....
Just seems ridiculous that she actually left you because of this.

Re: The Dude Converts
 

if your wife is like any of the serious christians i know, you had to expect renouncing the faith to cause a pretty big rift. maybe not to the point of leaving you, but i'm not shocked that this development is causing problems.

on the other hand, what are you gonna do, pretend to believe for the next 40 years? it's pretty ballsy to make a decision like this. good luck, i hope stuff works out in the end.

Re: The Dude Converts
 

The stance that most probably a God does not exist (or a personal God(s) that has a special interest in mankind or planet earth) is usually an emotional one, especially for someone that grows up in or is attached to a god-based religious home life and society. Hostility and misunderstanding will now be a given that will be a constant, if you make your rational outlook well known or conspicuous to friends and family. Many will not understand or be taken aback, but some at least will be civil and tolerant or that is to be hoped.

At this juncture a time of reflection is needed, a breathing space so to speak, to take stock of your decision and all the implications that it may entail. Calm inner self-examination is called for. Responses to the attitude changes that will no doubt take place within your own family and circle of friendships should be weighed so that you choose words and conversations with care as quick and thoughtless communications can have far reaching implications. You should thoroughly examine the repercussions of this significant shift in your thinking and beliefs. The above may sound trite or trivial advice but I assure you I do not give this out lightly. It was gained from some of my own experiences. You should also learn and practice the very valuable lesson of Confucian silence. You may not understand this right away but in time it will become something of great value.

I also feel hesitant about trying to give serious advice, no more so than now, but I think it important enough to forego my own reticence.

Remember, Rationality has a price.

-Zeno

Re: The Dude Converts
 

When I go all-in whit A4, at the end of an turbo tourney, with my last $800, and a nice player calls me with AK, and I win, I`m shure God exists. Ty Dude

Re: The Dude Converts
 

dude

what is more important to you - your wife or your non-belief in god?

Re: The Dude Converts
 

Dude-
Counseling is truly in order IF your wife is a real committed Christian and you are (or even if you aren't) an Atheist.
You are asking her to tilt her whole belief system to accommodate your new thinking. (She married a christian)

I equate it somewhat to deciding that you are gay after being married for a period of time, or deciding that the ultra conservatives are right...well you can guess.

It's your life. You have chosen to share it with someone else. COUNSELING.

Good Luck DUDE and DUDETTE

Re: The Dude Converts
 

I dont understand why believing or not believing in God should effect somebody's life. I mean what do religious people do in their everyday life (except sundays of course) that an atheist doesnt or vice versa?!

Also, there is no way you can prove the existence of a supernatural god using math and finding analogy to things that belong to this world.

Re: The Dude Converts
 

Congratulations. I too was a believing Christian, probably not for as long as you, but for a long time, who made the same realization. It didn't come from any one book or argument, just deep thinking on my part, and one day it just snapped. I realized that all the time I was going to church, praying, etc., that I didn't really believe it, and that I was simply lying to myself the whole time so that I could fit in with what other people I knew believed. I wanted to be a Christian, because I thought that it was the "right" sort of way to live one's life based on what society told me, but when it came down to it, I just couldn't buy the message they were trying to send. Afterwards I sat back and thought about religion for a little while, read a few books with a more logical mindset, and it soon became obvious that the idea of the existence of a biblical god was simply ridiculous.
Good luck with your marriage - I know this may be tough for you now, but I think that it's quite likely that you've been doubting this aspect of your life for a long time, and things will probably turn out for the better, especially if Christianity was so essential to your marriage that your wife would break up with you because of it. Obviously counseling is in order, but I think that if you have the type of truly strong bond that people who are married should have, your wife should be able to accept your beliefs.

Re: The Dude Converts
 

How can Haji be christian? lol.

Re: The Dude Converts
 

[ QUOTE ]
I dont understand why believing or not believing in God should effect somebody's life. I mean what do religious people do in their everyday life (except sundays of course) that an atheist doesnt or vice versa?!

Also, there is no way you can prove the existence of a supernatural god using math and finding analogy to things that belong to this world.

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Whether Dude believes in God or not is not the issue at hand. It is the relationship with his wife that he is now having trouble with because of his (I don't know what to call it-paradigm shift?)

Religion is a personal choice. You are lucky if you have not been adversely affected when some religious folks find out you have no "God based" beliefs.

Re: The Dude Converts
 

I do have "God based" beliefs but my life would be exactly the same if I didnt.

Re: The Dude Converts
 

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It reminds me of the quote by JFK: "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."

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You should fear misquoting people.

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More of a misattribution than a misquote. But then all those three letter politicians are the same.